The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Article on The Gospel Coalition website discussing EU

Evangelical Universalism
#17

Dr. McDermott,

Thank you for providing a classic critique of evangelical universalism. My perception is that you emphasize that the Bible says mankind’s division will be “final,” but offer no text that calls God’s horrific judgments “final.” You only assert that ‘aionios’ seems to “clearly” mean “forever.” But I know of no serious study which finds that this definition can consistently apply. You add that ‘heaven’ can’t be endless, unless hell also is, without offering any rationale for why the nature of resurrection life must depend on its’ duration being specified in Matthew 25’s parable.

You claim that Romans 5’s “all MEN” “will be made righteous” must be the language of huge exaggeration because it also calls them “the many.” But you ignore Paul’s parallel grammar that would mean this is the very same “many” who “were made sinners” in Adam. Thus, unless Paul is careless with language, it appears strained to deny that he believes (as in Colossians 1:20,16) that the “all” to be “reconciled to God” by Christ’s blood" is indeed in context the “all that were created” by God.

I believe that such questions can’t be settled by citing authorities who share the traditional fears that such a hope of God’s sure victory would mean that our costly evangelistic efforts won’t change the number and experience of those saved. This charge is often used to repudiate Calvinists. But I think evangelical differences here must be grounded in exegetical discussions of the Scripture itself.

#18

First order of business before coffee with Dr. McDermott would be “coming out of the closet” re: my universalism with my pastor. :confused:

#19

Oh, ah, yes… I see that makes things a little more complicated.

#20

Tom Talbott has weighed in on the conversation: thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/will_all_be_saved

#21

A stoning of heretics? That’s awesome! :laughing:

#22

Dr. McDermott has responded to Tom Talbott and Robin Parry in the comment section.

#23

Just finished reading all the new comments - it’s a great shame many reveal a deep misunderstanding of our position :confused: :frowning:

#24

It is, but I think the Universalists have acquitted themselves quite well. I think a reader on the fence, if they were just reading McDermott’s article, would be swayed away from Universalism. But a reader who continues on to the comments, see’s Robin’s response, Tom’s comments, the comments of many here, especially compared to quality of the comments of the anti-universalists, will be interested in doing further exploration into the topic, hopefully checking out the forum, or Tom or Robin’s books.

#25

I know I’m very biased but I do agree the majority of EU comments were more helpful :wink: I certainly hope people look into it more for themselves.

#26

, Robin"]… I’ll let readers consider his arguments and see how persuasive they find them. I have no interest in an interminable back-and-forth (nor, I imagine, does Gerald McDermott) so I will leave it to stand as it is (though, of course, there is a fair bit that could be said in reply).

#27

I apologize for being slow to the dance, but I just ran across this Themelios article by McDermott, and completed reading all the comments there, and all the comments in this thread. I just wanted to share my impressions. I am relatively new to universalism (maybe 2 years, barely seem to be getting my feet wet!) and am very persuaded by much of what I have read, especially from folks here at TEU. I have been reading much regarding the subject of “evangelical universalism.” McDermott’s short article was nothing different than what I have encountered as I have been studying and am in the middle of doing a very comprehensive book review of Hell Under Fire. The very same “tired” assumptions about biblical texts, the very same “tired” explanations (or lack thereof) of biblical doctrine concerning salvation, hell, the end times, eternity, etc. The near total ignoring of EU’s biblical and philosophical arguments is nothing short of stunning. I have yet to read of any “notable” author in the traditional Christian camp that will acknowledge that the likes of Parry, Talbott, Pratt, and the ancients from Jesus day through the last century, even have one rational thought regarding Christianity, especially Christianity looked at from an EU perspective by these and other fine Christians. I guess it is the assumptions that traditional Christianity is right and everyone else is wrong and does not deserve a hearing from the traditionalists that gets under my skin.

I guess what set my teeth on edge were the comments made by someone by the name of Maurice Smith. His arrogance, smugness, lack of true humility (so-called humble words encased in sarcasm, or with the feel of pure sarcasm are not humility, and this is what I perceived), made me want to quit reading the comments. At one point he even comments that that current comment will be his last, and then he goes on and on commenting to so many additional comments. It left me thinking that not only is he arrogant and lacks humility but he is a liar to boot! The comments I read in response to M. Smith by Talbott, Parry (comments to McDermott and I think M. Smith, but I could be wrong), Pratt, Alex Smith, et al., were for the most part pretty darn gracious compared to his own comments. I agree with Talbott that McDermott should not have attempted to summarize such an important and divisive topic as EU. I admit that I am not much for mincing words and have a lower tolerance for people who merely want to win an argument rather than winning a brother. I would much rather deal plainly with people and say what I mean, and mean what I say, rather than trying to find infinite ways to sugar coat what I believe (often I am then misunderstood about what I really mean/feel/believe). I also admit that I have been in the process of understanding and practicing more irenic discussions with those who oppose my uni beliefs. It has been a long time since I engaged in any discussions that turned rancorous. So, I tip my hat to all of you who commented with love and respect for those who were, in my opinion, vociferously seeking to slam your beliefs as heretical and elevate themselves as the seemingly “sole keepers of truth.”

I know I have much to learn when dealing with others who disagree with me. I feel such pity for those who are missing out on such a beautiful and biblical belief as evangelical universalism.I am grateful that I have found a group of believers, brothers and sisters alike, that I can interact with that will be a shining example of how to interact with the likes of McDermott, M. Smith, and the others. I hope that as I continue to follow your writings here, that I will learn by your example and exhibit more the deep love that you all show to those who frequent this board. I would appreciate any help you all could offer to aid my journey to understand/deal with this type of opposition that came out concerning the TGC article and its comments. I will finish this excessively long (longer than I expected!) comment by saying, I am not upset, though my words may seem that way. I am concerned and shocked that tradition runs rough shod over truth far to often and I feel impotent to deal with it! The upside is my prayer life is better because of it! Well, thanks for listening and thanks in advance for any help you can /may throw my way! Blessings to you all!

Michael McClymond on Universalism
Gerald McDermott on Universalism
#28

Thanks for the kind words truthclaim. It’s certainly frustrating not being understood, nor taken seriously by many (most?) people. I’m glad you’re praying about it - I do think God is slowly opening people’s eyes more (hopefully myself included!). I pray God continues to work in you too :slight_smile:

#29

Thank you very much for the compliment! I was beginning to feel increasingly sarcastic about Maurice, so I moved along, but I worried I hadn’t done so well in my attitude before leaving. :blush:

#30

[tag]JasonPratt[/tag]
[tag]Alex Smith[/tag]

I recently referred a friend to this article and was dismayed that none of our comments were present any longer. Does anyone have an ability to find these comments and repost a link to them?

#31

Here is the direct link: themelios.thegospelcoalition.org/article/will-all-be-saved

#32

Incidentally, I don’t know why the EU forum engine didn’t tag me – based on the code there it should have – but I’ll repost it for testing effect.

Must be a Disqus problem? Their service has been unstable for several years. I dunno.

Often pages are archived on the internet in special archivy places, but I don’t quite know how to search for them on purpose. I usually find them only by accident while searching for other things.

Okay, after poking around a bit, I found that Disqus itself has saved all 3200ish comments I’ve made on it over the years, including from that thread; following that, I was able to find Disqus’ archive of the thread comments: disqus.com/home/discussion/theg … coalition/

#33

Weird, that tagged me in a topic, no problem. :confused: Oh well, glad I sort of lucked into responding to the call; hope that counts as providence! :sunglasses:

Looking through my comments on a RethinkingHell thread from the same three years ago (not sure how close), I was astounded but not exactly surprised (if that makes sense) to remember that Peter Grice (in the comments) was arguing that in giving creatures eonian life God makes them invulnerable to God and even makes them effectively have the same immortality God does, thus becoming necessarily self-existent beings. :astonished: :open_mouth: :astonished: :open_mouth:

That isn’t even supernaturalistic theism anymore; much less trinitarian theism. The level of theological ineptitude by people trying to defend an ultimate non-salvation from sin, boggles my mind: ideas are just buzzwords for convenience to most people. sigh.

Here’s that fun thread in case RethiHell somehow deleted it, too: disqus.com/home/discussion/reth … thew_2546/

#34

Nice work Jason. I reckon that Disqus didn’t cope with the URL changing :unamused: Anyway, I’ve posted a link on the new URL to the old comments but I’ll need to see if they allow it…

#35

Thanks Jason and Alex! You guys rock!!!

#36

What about also posting a link to the old comment collection on the new comment section? i.e., click here to go to the prior comments for this article, archived at Disqus.