The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Filthy Still??

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Can’t find/recall if this text has been discussed here so…

Rev 22:11 sure seems to speak of a time when God kind of gives up and says that there comes a point when things are set, forever, as they are. It implies finality of decision, and no hope for later change or redemption. Fates are “sealed” for good or ill. Locked in even. Fates settled.

That’s how UR detractors read this text.

We of UR convictions, like the picture of the “kings of the earth” (earlier banished to the lake of fire) later on entering the Holy city and bringing their glory in. But this text comes even after that wonderful image and seems to pull us back from that optimism and clarity. Since we’ve already had the lake of fire, has this group somehow escaped it’s purgings and cleansings and remained recalcitrant forever?

This is a depressing and unnerving text to find right there in the midst of all that glorious victory and celebration talk.
What do we do with Rev 22:11??

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Revelation 22:14
Why are there “thirsty” in Rev 22‘s heaven?
#2

Looks like UR isn’t true after all. Bummer.
Seriously, though, it could mean that, but I’ll see what others say…

#3

In one of my recent discussions of the end of RevJohn with Roofus (which, managing to overcome lazyness and fever tonight I hunted up to link to after all here :slight_smile: --{waving to Roofus who briefly commented while I was writing!}), I expressed my opinion that this verse is supposed to be an indication of intransigence and perseverence in the final days of the tribulation. It is notably sandwiched between two very strong indications that those who remain “filthy” will not only keep being exhorted to come in, but that (as with the kings of the earth) they will actually do so.

I expect the statement is meant as a rhetorical counter-comparison, not as a command. You all go on being like that. But we will go on being like this; and here is what that means: yes, there is punishment on the way, but we will never give up on loving you and encouraging you to wash and come home.

I would be more worried about it, if it wasn’t only smack between two examples of continuing and successful evangelism, but also wasn’t clarified by a massive amount of scriptural data otherwise.

It would seem that an annihilationist would have to construe part or all of this chapter to mean it takes place in the present day (for which there is some indication, since after all evangelism is a present-day activity at least. :wink: ) The filthy can hardly go on being unjust after the lake of fire judgment if they are annihilated out of existence after all! Fortunately, it is not my problem to try to explain how this verse must occur within continuity of at least one or maybe two calls to hopeful present-day evangelism while also appearing to contravene any hope of that evangelism being successful flatly in the face of the surrounding data.

I expect a Calvinist would point to this as being the distinction between the elect and the non-elect, the latter of whom God never intended to save and so who are confirmed in their sins forever by God, rendering the question of annihilation moot. But it seems an awful jump to have “the filthy” bluntly condemned in hopelessness in comparison with the “righteous” who keep on being righteous; and then to have to explain why shortly afterward the Spirit and the Bride and the one who hears them (i.e. the righteous who are busy being righteous, unlike the ones who are still loving and fondling their sinning) are exhorting with Jesus for the “filthy” to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the river of the water of life coming out of the New Jerusalem, so that the “filthy” can obtain permission to enter and eat of the tree of life. Again, fortunately, not my problem. :smiley:

It is a tough verse to read with the context in any case. Which to me signals that the meaning is probably not supposed to be straightforward, but rather some kind of figure of speech; thus my opinion about it being a counter-point comparison, introducing the distinction that soon follows afterward. (Which is literally the final specific revelation of the book.)

(Edited to add: see also my brief followup later in this thread here where I agree with Roofus on another/further interpretation.)

popular arguments in favor for endless hell refuted
#4

Could it mean that the sentence will passed on judgment day and there will be no waiting for people to change anymore? It’s into the fire regardless of one’s state?

Similar to?
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

roofus (still agnostic about the final state)
45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

#5

Is it possible that it means: “ready or not, here i come to bring judgement, whatever state I find you in?”
Maybe I am stretching here, I fear.

#6

So, Total Victory, have you found this view insurmountable for UR? I would have to say that is a real challenge for myself.
I suppose that it could mean that when Jesus returns to judge, He will judge humans as they are at that time- that it will be too late to change at that time, that only judgement remains. But I must admit that it still seems possibly a good verse to support ECT.

#7

Well, not exactly insurmountable, but a problem to take seriously.

For me, one of the things which lends great credibility to Talbott, and MacDonald, is how seriously they take all the judgement talk and imagery in the bible. But they have transformed those images which had, heretofore, been considered supportive of ECT (or annihilationism in my case) and shown, quite convincingly I might add, that the punishment/judgment is redemptive – and not punitive. So, as in Is 19, yes, God does strike Egypt – however, “striking but healing.”

Thus we must be seen as taking what scripture says seriously.

Now it seems to me that when reading the bible we are very prone to reading as if all the events fall in sequence and happen consecutively. To be sure, that’s the way history itself evolves but most all agree that this writing is not literal history and the writers jump around a lot; talking about future, present and past all at once sometimes. Having my own origins in a denomination that finds great security and confidence in very detailed eschatology sequences (SDA) this is particularly hard for me.

However, when I take several steps back and try to paint one huge and broad picture into which details are THEN placed, something else emerges. My big picture then is built on ideas like God’s Total Victory; God’s faithfulness to see this whole drama through to it’s final resolution (Romans 9&11); God’s success at reconciling ALL things back to Himself; (eg see Col 1:15-20) that the very same “all” which are in Adams sin (ie all really does mean all here) are also included in Christ’s life and victory; (eg 1 Cor 15;22 etc) and the idea, which I find quite compelling, that for death to be entirely defeated, it’s winnings (ie those it had previously claimed) must be returned back to the life-giver (ie WHERE O death is your sting and victory? 1Cor 15:55 etc) Thus for me, taking scripture seriously also demands I take God’s total and complete victory over sin, as well as the inherently redemptive nature of everything God does (even what seems harsh to us from one perspective) I conclude UR is by far the most likely scenario.

That being the case, I find myself approaching this problematic Rev text with UR as the controlling paradigm; Rev 22:11 must be fit INTO the overarching paradigm of UR and not the other way around. This invites me then to wonder if, for example this is one of those “time-jumping” comments – thus judgment, which we already know is redemptive, won’t be delayed forever. Perhaps this comment meant, to the original hearers of this line, confidence that resolution would, eventually come. Something like an assurance that God’s everlasting mercy is not to be equated with indecision wherein God waits forever for the sinner to change his mind. I can imagine the folks listening to Johns Revelation wondering if God’s mercy actually will postpone indefinitely the glorious resolution being promised. This line insists that no, there WILL come a time when the filthy will be so still – and thus will undergoe the purifying lake of fire experience. This then is seen as assurance for the faithful.

And of course this line, as Jason noted, is in the midst of overt evangelical activity. Why bother with evangelistic calls if there is no hope of change?

Is all this a tiny bit awkward and strained? Well sure. But, in my mind anyway, far less strained that having to ignore the very clear meanings of the other texts mentioned above…

That seems to be the milleu in which we must make these discernments. Still pondering all this in my heart though!

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#8

Hm… I thought I had added an affirmative to my comment, agreeing with you on this; but looking back now toward the end of the month, for linking to this (and a previous) discussion, I see that I didn’t. Sorry, my bad! Probably due to pseudo-flu at the time.

I am quite sure that the subsequent warning/promise means this (i.e. the common promise of YHWH, this time as Jesus, coming to reward and/or punish those according to their works.) So I have no problem with this preceding verse also having that meaning (or at least topically connecting to that meaning) as well.

#9

Verse 12?

Yes.

The idea seems to be the same.

I don’t think you’re stretching at all here roofus.

I think that’s exactly what it means (no more, no less.)

Thank you.

#10

“The meaning is, Let men continue in these various characters, if they will. I come quickly with the rewards that they will respectively deserve. A similar mode of expression is adopted in Ecclesiastes 11:9.”

“Abbott’s Illustrated New Testament”

“Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.” (Eccl.11:9)

#11

Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy. (Rev.22:11, NIV)

Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. (Rev.22:11, NASB)

Comparable & cross referenced verses are:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

But when I speak to you, I will open your mouth and you shall say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says.’ Whoever will listen let him listen, and whoever will refuse let him refuse; for they (Israel) are a rebellious house. (Ezek.3:27)

and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.” (Zech.11:9)

Jeremiah 15:2
"And it shall be that when they say to you, ‘Where should we go?’ then you are to tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Those destined for death, to death; And those destined for the sword, to the sword; And those destined for famine, to famine; And those destined for captivity, to captivity.”’

Revelation 13:10
“If anyone is destined for captivity, into captivity he will go; If anyone is to die by the sword, by the sword he must be killed.” Here is a call for the perseverance and faith of the saints.

Jeremiah 43:11
"He will also come and strike the land of Egypt; those who are meant for death will be given over to death, and those for captivity to captivity, and those for the sword to the sword.

Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone inscribed with a new name, known only to the one who receives it.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Rev.2:29)

Revelation 3:6,13,22 He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit said to the churches…

Revelation 13:9
He who has an ear, let him hear:

Rev.22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

John 7:37
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Mt.11:15)

Matthew 13:9
He who has ears, let him hear."

Matthew 13:43
Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Mark 4:9
Then Jesus said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Mark 4:23
If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear."

Mark 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 8:8
Still other seed fell on good soil, where it sprang up and produced a crop–a hundredfold." As Jesus said this, He called out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”