The Evangelical Universalist Forum

10 Virgins: are half “lost”?

Theology
#41

Hi Amy,

Paul seems to say something similar in Roman 7.

“For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do… Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it… What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

Paul sees himself as having two natures simultaneously. He is both in Adam and in Christ. The Paul-in-Adam loves sin and opposes God. The Paul-in-Christ hates sin and serves God. Paul longs for the day when the two natures are severed forever. The evil Paul will be utterly destroyed by God, leaving the real Paul, the Paul-in-Christ, behind.

This makes sense of many passages like “God works all things together for those who love him”, and “God has compassion on those who fear him.” Does this mean God has no compassion on most (since most don’t fear him), or that he works for the good only of the few who love him? Surely not. But if there is something born of God in every person, and this part fears Him and loves Him by nature (whether they quite realize it or not), then of course God’s love will work for the good of that part of that person. In the same way, God’s wrath will be working towards the destruction of the evil part in every person.

Jesus rejects the wicked, saying “Depart from me. I don’t know you.” But supposing one of them replies, “Hey! Course you know me! I’m Billy Bogger, from Wogga Wogga.” “Ah,” says Jesus, “Yes. I do remember now… Billy Bogger…”

God can know only that which is real. God can tell me what light is (photons etc) but he cannot tell me what darkness is. Darkness, being the absence of light, isn’t actually something. It’s nothing, and not even God knows what nothing is. Now if evil is the absence of good just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is also nothing. Not even God knows what it is. So when he destroys the evil in me, God will say to my shadowy Adam-self, “Away from me, you who are cursed, into the fire. I do not know you.”

“This is the end of our hope, that nothing shall be left contrary to the good, but that the divine life, penetrating all things, shall absolutely destroy death from existing things.” Gregory of Nyssa.

#42

AllanS, thanks for explaining more of your thoughts. I like and agree with Gregory of Nyssa’s hope.

I’ve not heard your perspective before. I have tended to see that we have two natures and the sin nature needs to be dealt with. I also have tended to believe that God works for the good of all of us since at one time or another we all have been astray, not loved God. God somehow sees fit to value us.

About the people he tells, “Depart from me I never knew you,” I’ve always thought that it was not that he did not know who they were, but that he was repudiating their behavior and bringing judgement since their acts had testified against them. It is interesting that we can be very mixed bags, though scripture seems to indicate that, as Christians, we are to be different than the world that does not know God.

#43

I see the parable the same way AllanS does, not only as it correlated the separation of the sheep and goats, but the wheat and the tares… even the “two” in one bed, , the “two” in the field, the “two” grinding at the mill… where one is take and the other left… I see all of these in relation to the dividing of the spirit from the flesh, the old man from the new man, the outward man from the inward man, the natural man from the spiritual man, the first man from the second man, the first Adam from the Last Adam…

#44

lots of interesting points of view.
for me, it’s simply that we have Paul saying “all” are saved by Christ, and we have Jeremiah saying “The Lord does not cast off forever.”
these are pretty clear statements, and so strongly put that i’d hesitate not to interpret any other scripture on the “end” by their light.
if that’s the case, then He’s warning that the 5 foolish virgins will miss out on something, but not that they’re forever doomed.
i don’t think that follows from the context, and i also think there’s a severe danger (as stated) of making this salvation by works, not by grace, so that many should boast.
i think instead it’s saying generally that our sin nature will be burnt away (sort of like AllanS says) but also that those who persist in these ways and don’t follow God’s plan for our way of life will be subject to chastisement.

but then, God chastises those He loves…

for me, this all flows back into the realms of academia, working out the mechanics, but the truth remains as clearly stated by Paul, John, Jeremiah, etc, not to mention the meta-narrative of the whole Bible.

#45

I must have missed this back when it was originally written. Sorry for the late reply.

Actually, the Context intails not only the Literary Context (the surrounding verses and chapters), but the Culture, the History, and the Author are also elements of the Context. The “due diligence” buisness that I speak of is doing the research of the text’s culture, history, author, audience, literary style and literary context that is helpful, even necessary in understanding a passage. These are necessary to arrive at an informed interpretation of the passage. Without them, well, “A Text without a Context is a Pretext.” There is much more to Context than only the literary context.

And btw, I do not affirm “Sola” Scriptura, rather “Prima” Scriptura. I believe that scripture should be our primary foundation for faith and doctrine, but affirm also the roles of Reason, Tradition, and Experience. Concerning extra-biblical material, such often helps us understand the language, culture, history, and audience related to the text; it is not “paramount” as you say, nor have I claimed such. But I do believe that extra-biblical material is very helpful in understanding the text of scripture.

I’m simply doing my best to understand the message of the parable, based on its context and not read into it something that it was not meant to communicate. It’s very easy to “read into” parables much more than the parable was every intended to illustrate. This parable was intended to illustrate the suddeness of the coming of the Lord in judgment. That principle was most applicable in that literary context to the prophecied destruction of Jerusalem, but it is also very applicable to judgment coming to us individually and in the life to come. The point of the parable is clearly communicated when Jesus said, “Watch therefore for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” To use this parable to somehow prove that Jesus fails to save some of humanity is to misuse this passage, I think.

Concerning what happens to the five foolish virgins, that is part of the story, but not the stated point, moral of the story. Can this same story illustrate other points, other morals? Yes, it can. But Jesus told it to simply illustrate the importance of living ready to face the Lord in judgment. There are many “truths” that one can hear through this story, but the passage, as recorded, was not meant to communicate these many “truths” but to illustrate the one truth declared in the passage. This is a good example of the difference between exegetical and eisegetical interpretation of parables. Of course, there is also, what I call, prophetic interpretation of such parables; this is where God speaks something to you personally through the passage, one that is true, but one that is not the exegetical message of the passage.

For example, the parable of the Sower exegetically speaks of how different people either receive, reject, loose, or allow the Word of God to have minimal effect in thier lives. But God showed me clearly that I personally have all four types of ground in my heart: good and receptive ground, ground harded by tradition, ground consumed with worry and fear, and ground that has stones (issues that need addressing, healing, deliverance). And through prayer, worship, and fellowship I open my heart to God to break up the hardened ground, to burn off and dig up the thorns, and to dig out the rocks, so that an increasing amount of my heart is good and receptive to and productive in the Word of God.

But that was a personal revelation, a prophetic understanding and interpretation of the parable of the Sower, not an exegetical interpretation.

In like manner, God can speak much to people through the parable of the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins, but in this case Jesus clearly stated the message of the parable is to affirm that the coming of the Son of Man would be sudden, unexpected.

#46

A really good study to understand the cultural context of the parables – including this one - is ‘Jesus Through Middle Eastern eyes’ by Kenneth E, Bailey. I’m reading it and enjoying it at the moment. Of this parble he usefully informs us that -

Starlight and moonlight are generally sufficient to light the way in the clear air of the Midle East. But women, young and old, always carry lamps. Their reputation, and in some cases, heir personal safety, depends on the lamps. For young unmarried women to move around in the dark without carrying lamps is unthinkable! What might they be doing in the dark and with whom (given this was and, in rural parts, still is an honour/shame culture)? Also, with a lamp, no one can harass them unseen. I have observed that village women do not carry such lamps conveniently close to the ground (like a flashlight) so that they can see in the street. Instead they carry the lamp directly in front of their faces so that all can witness who they are and where they are going.

Another fascinating insight he gives is that Ibn al-Tayyib – an eleventh century Syrian Christian scholar living in a culture not changed much since the time of Jesus – tells us that it took ten Jewish males to form a company for the celebration of the Passover, and he claims that ten males were required for a valid wedding ceremony. Thereby this parable has ten women. Ibn al – Tayyib implies that by choosing ten women, Jesus is trying to compensate for the gender gap in the religious culture of his day. The worth and equal dignity of women is clearly affirmed by this story.

#47

Thanks so much for posting this, Dick

You have made me go back on my “promise” to myself (ie: no more books until I read what I’ve got!) Yeah, it’s now on my Kindle . . . I’ve been pondering this parable for a very long time and always have felt I must be missing something. I think this will help a lot. :smiley:

#48

Hi Cindy -

Yes… I think it’s a book you’d really enjoy :smiley:. It fits well with your interests insofar as I know of these (and I’d put it in your Christmas stocking! :laughing: ). The author does not seem to be a Universalist as such - although this is not hugely relevant to his theme. I’d call him an open evangelical with an ecumenical spirit - and I note that he does quote three authors who are Universalists with approval (although he does not mention their Universalism).

Let me know what you think some day – if/when you have a read. I think the sections on the birth narratives and the Parable of the Good Samaritan are especially enlightening.

Blessings

Dick

#49

I think so, Dick. I haven’t had a chance to do any reading today, but I really liked what you shared about the lamps. I know we miss a LOT by not understanding the culture as we read, so I love learning more about all the “inside stories.” And hey! I guess I should have waited for Christmas! :laughing:

#50

Yes I guess you should :laughing:

#51

I’m quite a fan of Kenneth’s book, too, if another vote helps. :smiley:

Not entirely sure where I first read about the behavior of baby goats (that they have to be specially trained to be obedient but become the most reliable of the herd eventually, much better than the sheep), but it might have been from him.

#52

That’s a trinity of good taste then :laughing: :smiley:

#53

That’s a charming detail about the goats Jason :slight_smile: - it’s so sweet and so amenable to a universalist interpretation of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats :slight_smile: It doesn’t seem to be in ‘Middle Eastern Eyes’ - but Kenneth has written several other books on the theme I see; so it might be in one of these