The problem with this line of thinking is that, because of death, one could say that nothing has been forgiven. We all die. I cannot for a moment seriously entertain the notion.
Mankind was forgiven at the cross. That is, to me, the foundation of UR and God is not hedging on that by holding some sins against us and some not. It’s simple, we will die and be born again cleansed and washed by fire and love.
Actually I think what the real Aaron said may shed some light on an otherwise mysterious saying about sin that leads to death. But where I part ways is that there’s a difference between pardoning and forgiving. A pardon is the reprieve of punishment or discipline. Because God is perfect, he only pardons or refrains from pardoning when it is healthy for us in our spiritual growth. But he always forgives, because it’s in his nature, being that he loves us so incredibly much.
And how does this answer my question? Are you just passing out random insults today, or do you actually have reasonable evidence for your remark?
Sonia
Btw, A37, why do you keep emphasizing that the sin against the HS is a hardened state of condition when Jesus talked about it as if it were a specific action?
Can you post something from a link somewhere about that? Remember proper citation technique.
You’re just mincing words. Mankind wasn’t pardoned at the cross, mankind was forgiven.
Exactly. Jesus didn’t die to save us from the consequences of our sins but to make us right with God, by making us righteous, and thus saving us from very many consequences that we would inevitably run into by otherwise sinning. Consequences for sin help redeem us, too; but even these are subject to God’s sacrificial nature as displayed on the cross, which is the gateway to God’s life and righteousness being imparted to us.
A pardon is a legal term, or at least used in a similar fashion, regarding punishment/discipline. Forgiveness is a word spoken in intimate relationships. But just because God intimately forgives us, does not mean that we are off the hook for the consequences of what we’ve done, at least when those consequences can serve to help us come closer to Him.
But God is a perfect Parent and I leave it in His hands how He deals with each specific situation.
Also, an explanation. I prefer not to use the word punishment because it’s misleading but the reason is because it’s tied in with the normal meaning of pardon. Of course we are 100% forgiven and God does nothing out of pure vengeance and I believe would pardon someone from the consequences (depending, perhaps) if they had truly changed. That’s not in question here.
Excellent point! People are loved by God. He gave His Son for them.
Hi Justin,
While I confess to not having done a thorough word study on the terms “forgiveness” and “pardon” as they appear in Scripture, I’m not so sure the words can be distinguished in meaning as you have done. Since becoming a Universalist, my understanding of the word “forgiveness” is just as you define “pardon.” I find this view best expressed in the words of Thomas Talbott, who writes:
(The Inescapable Love of God, pp. 103-104)
Talbott goes on to say, “When Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment.”
When God forgives someone it means he does not count their sins against them but “blots them out” - which means he cancels the prescribed punishment that they previously deserved. In contrast, those who are not forgiven must “serve their sentence,” so to speak:
“The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.” Deut 29:20
“Yet you, O LORD, know all their plotting to kill me. Forgive not their iniquity, nor blot out their sin from your sight. Let them be overthrown before you; deal with them in the time of your anger.” Jeremiah 18:23
So while I do think it’s in God’s nature to forgive, I also think that whether or not forgiveness is experienced by a person depends upon the state or condition of their heart: “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt 6:14-15). What I find so remarkable about this warning from Jesus is that God is said to be the Father even of those from whom divine forgiveness may be withheld - which means that even when God withholds forgiveness from someone, he does so as a benevolent Parent who, appearances notwithstanding, still has their best interest at heart.
Justin,
I should also add that, having just read subsequent posts by you on this thread, I think we are in fundamental agreement on this subject. What you seem to be referring to as God’s forgiveness I identify as his favorable and benevolent stance toward mankind, which (as I think you’d agree) is unchanging. God’s disposition toward mankind has always been that of a loving Father, and his justice has never demanded anything that is inconsistent with his mercy.
Yeah, we are pretty much in agreement. If anything, we probably just disagree on an issue of semantics. Like the end of Talbott’s quote,
That states the idea I’ve been trying to get across exactly. I think we can just leave it at that statement so as to avoid confusion. Actually I’d just thought of the idea (at least how to explain it) on the spot, I hadn’t done any word studies. But I was observing basic concepts and narrative, such as the story of Ananias and Sapphira. I didn’t mean that some believers who had received forgiveness weren’t pardoned, but that some who don’t even believe yet but have forgiveness in store for them anyway may not yet be pardoned. Of course, it can be argued that A and S were born again (maybe not conclusively, but who knows) yet they were still struck down. But of course this kind of thing often works by degrees. A child adopted off the streets still has many lessons to learn.
I’ll leave with a few quotes from the man George MacD (from It Shall Not Be Forgiven):
Hi Ran,
What I mean by death as a punishment should be understood as a premature death or a death brought about by execution. Of course we all die, but not everyone suffers the death penalty. I think Scripture makes this important distinction.
Also, as Talbott points out in the quote I provided earlier, to be unforgiven by God does not mean that God doesn’t love us, or that he refuses to correct and restore us. It simply means that he has seen fit to expose us to the consequences of our sins (i.e., the just punishment of which our sins have made us deserving). Once the “debt is paid” and the “sentence is served” the person is no longer in need of forgiveness/pardon.
Moreover, I do agree with you that we will all be raised from the dead “cleansed and washed” from all sin. I just don’t see Christ’s death as being some sort of legal necessity that had to take place in order for this to happen.
Not according to 2 Cor 5:19 ;21. The consequences of our sin were paid for by Jesus. Mankind is forgiven… but each individual must appropriate this grace into their lives by faith to partake of this forgiveness. This statement totally contadicts this passage. Aaron, no one pays for their own sin by suffering and is no longer in need of pardon. Thats nonsense!
Aaron, if you sow to the lust of the flesh you will reap destruction whether you’re saved or unsaved… if you choose to live a willingly sinful lifestyle you will bring pain and misery and indignation to your life ( Rom 2:8-9)
Say what? Without the shedding of Jesus’ blood there is no remission of sin. We did not have any legal grounds to approach God spiritually due to being under the dominion of Satan and the law of sin and death operating in our spiritually dead spirits. ( Heb 2:14) Jesus being our substitute was able to put sin away and make it possible for us to legally receive Eternal life, the very life and nature of God. Without this born again life you will not be raised "cleansed and washed"with right standing with God.
Physical death whether prematurely or by execution or by natural causes will be experienced by everyone ( Rom 5:12).Romans 5:12 is the death penalty (spiritually and physically). We do not need to experience this because Jesus has already suffered death brought on by execution by suffering the death penalty for us all by his death and resurrection. To partake in this glorious salvation one must appropriate this grace by faith into their lives.
You’re right about the sin in 1John 5:16 being unforgivable, but the sin that leads to death in 1 John 5:16 is not physical. It cannot be because all of us are going to eventually die physically( premature or not) regardless of any sin we commit in this life (Rom 5:12). This death the apostle John is speaking of is “spiritual death” that leads to the eternal sin to blaspheme the HS that has eternal consequences. That is why God instructs us not to pray for those who commit this sin because it will do no good due to the hardness of their hearts and minds. It is “a state of hardness of the heart in which one consciously and willfully resists or renounces God’s saving power and grace” (Holman Bible Dictionary, p. 198). To again quote the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, Jesus is “not speaking of an isolated act, but a settled condition of the soul” (vol. 8, p. 645). They are guilty of the eternal sin that has eternal consequences.
Again, when you understand the fullness of 2 Cor 5:19… Jesus has already been judged and bore the punishment for the world’s sin and sin is no longer being imputed to anyone’s account. God is not mad at the world anymore. The sin barrier has been dealt with. Sin is no longer the issue; the price has been paid once and for all. God sent His only Son to bare our sin, become sin itself, and then judged Him without mercy for that sin. Now in order to partake in this salvation one must respond by faith to appropriate this grace into their lives. We are not condemned because of sin. We are condemned by our unbelief (John 3:18). All sin is included but the one sin that Jesus said shall not be forgiven in any age, to blaspheme the HS by remaining in unbelief.
The pain, misery, and death experienced on earth is directly related to the curse of sin and death (Gen 3:17-18;24) that was placed on creation by Adam’s sin(Rom 5:12;8:2). There are consequences to every decision one makes in life, but until this universe is restored from the curse of sin and death and the devil and his demons can no longer kill, steal, and destroy by being thrown into the lake of fire forever at the end of the millenial reign of Christ, bad things will continue to happen in this universe to believers and unbelievers alike. Remember, Aaron, we don’t fight against flesh and blood, but against principalites, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Eph 6:12).
According to your reasoning, then, God’s striking Ananias and Sapphira dead for their sin was pretty superfluous. I mean, they were eventually going to die anyway, right? 
Not at all… there was a reason for Ananias and Sapphira being struck down dead. Lets take a close look, shall we? Paraphrasing: Peter said "Ananias why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? " why has thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Apparently Ananias and Sapphira had a lust problem for money and opened the door to their lives for Satan to take them out. We all walk in a measure of God’s grace, but when we step out of this grace we are open to be killed, to be stolen from, and to be destroyed by the devil. This is the process of how Satan gets entry into our lives in James 1:12-16: 12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Again, when we sow to the lust of the flesh we will reap destruction. I believe we are going to see alot more Ananias and Sapphira incidences in the body of Christ in these last days, my brother. 
Btw, Satan is not a fabrication of ones mind or someone running around in a harmless red costume with horns on his head with a tail and pitchfork. The devil and his demons are more real than this conversation and they are either planning or in the process of taking you and your family out…but most Christians are oblivious to this with their heads in the clouds. 
Does this mean that the “great fear” that we’re twice told “came upon those who heard” about this incident (Acts 5:5, 11) was actually a fear of a certain rebel angel? But for the sake of argument let’s say that a rebel angel did in fact “take them out” because they “had a lust a problem for money” and were consequently living outside of God’s protective grace. In other words, what happened was this: Ananias and Sapphira died prematurely as a consequence of their sin. Sounds a lot like a “sin that leads to death” to me.
Compare John’s words with those of James, who I believe speaks of sins that do not lead to death:
“Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.” (James 5:13-16)
Here James links the forgiveness of sins with a person’s miraculous recovery from illness. It is evident that James is speaking of sins that “do not lead to death,” since the person’s health could be restored as a result of prayer. John, however, seems to be speaking of a sin for which no recovery is possible (i.e., a sin that leads to a person’s death, as was the case with Ananias and Sapphira). In such a case, the prayers of the elders would be of no benefit to the person. Paul likely alludes to such a sin in 1 Cor 11:27-30:
“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.”
Indeed, it does. Christ suffered the ‘death penalty’ for humanity and quite unlike anyone else. One might say that His was the last deadly death and the first re-birth. There is no sting left in it. Death by cancer, death by execution, death by falling off a ladder and at each funeral a hope is expressed.
Death is the last ENEMY, it is not a ‘punishment’ anymore than being born. Let’s get this straight.
Otherwise, we would have funeral sermons such as this: ‘Our friend here died as a punishment for his sins because Christ, apparently, didn’t take them away at the cross.’
I agree with you if we’re talking about death as punishment, but I think instead the instances of deaths that are being given as examples happened to protect the church and keep her pure.
Christ didn’t suffer the ‘death penalty’ in the sense of his death being a punishment or judgment for sin, because he wasn’t guilty of anything. I reject any theory of the atonement that requires us to believe that Christ was punished for sins he didn’t commit so that we wouldn’t have to be punished for sins we did commit.
Ran, do you not see how death can be a punishment for one person but not for another? For most people, death simply comes as a matter of course; as you say, it is no more a punishment than being born. They die because they are mortal, not because they deserved it. But for others, their guilt makes them deserving of a premature death. As Paul says in Romans 1:28-32:
“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”
Do you not see the distinction between a believer who dies in a car accident and a criminal who is executed by the state? Do you see no difference between Herod’s death (Acts 12:20-23) and Stephen’s (Acts 7:54-60)? Yes, both will be raised immortal by Christ on the “last day” to be with him in heaven - and this unsurpassable blessing won’t be because of anything they did or didn’t do prior to their deaths. But the fact remains that these two men died for very different reasons. One man was “deserving of death” while the other was not.
Hi Justin,
I agree with you that the deaths of certain people in the first-century church “happened to protect the church and keep her pure,” but I’m not sure why their deaths cannot be understood as punishments as well. If such persons died in consequence of sins of which they were guilty, would that not make their deaths a punishment? Or if you don’t prefer the word “punishment,” could it at least be said that, for such persons, death was a “judgment?”