70 AD- calling you Davo


#291

That was your most accurate answer… You mean that I played a Doctor on TV :slight_smile: Glad you liked it!

I shall get to answering Dave’s queries properly from a pantelist perspective presently.

You are sure i’m wrong but you have to research the answers? Sweet! :laughing:

The fact is that there is no centralized FP playbook and you don’t all think exactly alike on every point. I gave the general perspective but you may have a Davo perspective.


#292

Some ‘perspicaciousresearch by you quasi-pret experts would do wonders as opposed to what is being trotted out as to “what prêterists believe”. :astonished: — I am of course taking the pantelism angle in this particular thread addressed to me.


#293

That is such an odd question and I wonder what you are thinking that raises that for you. Prêterists typically call me a “universalist” because I declare none shall be missing out. I’m sure I have the same belief, hope and expectation you do of life after death. Again I’m befuddled you even ask given the countless conversations we’ve had on this board; to use your phrase — what gives?

Did I use that term?

That’s the essence of 2Pet 3:13… God’s righteousness in Christ has superseded the limitations of law righteousness.

From the pantelist perspective “the body of Christ” was the firstfruit saints (Heb 12:23) — believers post parousia are technically the offspring of the great marriage of the Son to his Bride. Thus the consummation (the parousia) of the wedding was NOT the end, but the most glorious of beginnings.

Many things… one would be a servant of God.

AD30 AND AD70 was the bridge — these events were the bookends of God’s one-time restorative event in history in time for all history and time immemorial.


#294

Ok, time for me to do my due diligence - I’m going through your past comments (from 2012) until I get a better handle on things. I want to understand this. :smiley:


#295

Oh crap… what the heck did I say back in 2012? :laughing:


#296

You’ll see, you! :laughing:
I started on page 40 - where your first post was - and have followed up to page 35 or so. I’ve made many clips and am saving them in a folder, and hope to sort them by subject when I have them amassed.


#297

There is wisdom to be mined. :smiley:


#298

Agreed. I thought they believed, that the Zombie Apocalypse - happened around 70 A.D. It shows how little I know. :laughing:


#299

You two guys - have had a tough ‘row to hoe’ over the years on this forum (as I’ve been learning) and are to be commended, in my opinion, for staying true to your convictions.
But I have to go a step further - you have gored many a sacred cow, a few of which were mine :slight_smile: - for which I have to thank you :astonished: ! Turns out, they needed goring.
I believe that a source of confusion for many - certainly for me - is that we have not had (or not taken) the time to follow your reasoning step-by-step from “in the beginning” (2012, on this forum :laughing: :laughing: ) and thus, when you do speak to a question, though you may in fact be answering from a position of insight and sound exegesis, the answer only makes sense against the background of the great amount of study and thought you’ve done; and does not make sense with those whose background is often the untried presuppositions of a given form of religion.
I’m coming to see that Pantelism, in the main, keeps the Scriptures totally intact, though at the cost of deconstructing some traditional methods of interpretation that now look a bit ad hoc . This is hard on me, fellers - I’ve made a few ‘sea changes’ in the past 20 years - going into and out of Calvinism; going from unthoughtful trinitarianism to a more thoughtful current position; from ECT to Universalism; from God’s timelessness to a more ‘open’ stance on that issue - and others, all good changes, but none of them easy. Each change has been a liberation, and I think justifiable and honoring to God (I fervently hope), but not easy.

Does this mean I’m totally ‘on board’? Too early to tell. My past few days’ efforts have been spent going through the forum since davo joined, and following his posts, his reasoning, the responses he has gotten, and putting them all in one place. I will say this: when I read through the assembled information, in one document - there is GREAT strength in the pantelist position. (UP to this point in my study):

    • the scriptures stay intact, and many interpretive problems just clear up.
    • In one sense, nothing of substance changes from what many of us believe is fundamental to Christianity. More of that later perhaps.
  1. -The gospel stays just as glorious, the future bright, Christian fellowship as rich, - things just seem to be made ‘clearer’.
    • I will stay with GMAC, Wm.Ellery Channing and a few select others as it comes to Christian growth, understanding God’s ways with his children, and other essentials that may/may not fit perfectly into Pantelism; but also with #3 above.

I don’t do long posts, so that’s it for now. The take-away for me is that the pantelist position deserves study and thought. Let the truth come out - I’m sure the position has its flaws, and the way it is expressed may sound weird to the uninitiated - but it’s the truth that matters, eh?


#300

To be honest, it is not very popular or becoming (to the understanding at least here in the mid west USA) to believe in the Pantelist view. I actually lost my position as a bible study leader because I believed that Gods Grace Fulfilled all, That Christ was the propitiation of Israel, and thus all of Man Kind.
There is actual repugnance to the idea Christ could actually die for all sin, and yet that His Very death would be worthless until someone did or thought or believed something… There is much work to be done in the name of Christ.

But the fun is in realizing what scripture says as opposed to what ‘others’ say it means.

Good luck and thanks for your observations. :smiley:


#301

Davo said:

As I have pointed out on numerous occasions… Jesus himself defines <αἰώνιον> aiōnion exactly in like qualitative manner indisputably right here…

Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

My reply:

Then you have been wrong on numerous occaions. Their is no definition of aionion there. Also the word refers to duration, quantity of time,
not a quality of something, as is evident from the Scriptures, e.g.:

2 Cor.4:17 For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian(aionion) burden of glory,
18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary[for a season], yet
what is not being observed is eonian(aionion)."
2 Cor.5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands,
eonian(aionion), in the heavens.


#302

Thank Dave for your honest and encouraging appraisal… much appreciated. Pantelism makes no claim to have a mortgage on “truth” and in fact in one sense (and this might sound a little weird) sees truth as a little over-rated. What I mean by that is this… in my walk with God I have held many so-called “truths” dear to my heart and passionately so, even thanking God for their revelation ONLY to in time have jettisoned them for some greater truth etc. I came to the realisation one day that in spite of or despite my many movements in “belief” God has never loved me any more or less than ever He did, regardless of whatever present truth I was clinging to.

Sure, beliefs do affect behaviour, but none of that changes God’s grace… it might frustrate the outworking of its blessing in my life, but it’s there nonetheless. Some will say you HAVE TO believe… pantelism says it’s GOOD TO believe. I used to tell people they need to believe in God — these days if it comes up I simply tell them God believes in them. I take a more contemplative way these days and tend to follow this maxim (when I’m not belting someone around the head on a forum, lol :wink:)…


#303

Davo said:

Thanks Dave and Dave.

We’ll go from here. You guys are kinda cool. :laughing:


#304

Referring to your recent conversations, e.g. with 81 year old Paidon, are ye?

As it’s said, what comes around goes around.


#305

You’re a joke. Sure, Paidon and I have locked horns over various issues and yet despite seeing some things from slightly differing angles I like the fact that Paidion can THINK, and thinks for himself… could you learn from his example… hmmm?


#306

So much for taking “a more contemplative way these days”, eh. It didn’t take much to bring you back to your true self ;


#307

Guilty as charged… I do have to try harder at suffering fools. :laughing:


#308

Getting back on topic, exactly how does one “try harder” in the Pantelistic world?

Does Scripture have anything to do with it?


#309

I’m actually a bit more “neutral” here than Dave, regarding Pantelism and Full Pantelism.

If I can spend years in academia, listing to positions on theology, literature, psychology, and philosophy.
Hang around with folks folk the East and various Native American tribes - and partake in their ceremonies.
And be a lifelong member, of the Theosophical Society and listen to their lecturers - talk on bizarre things.

Then I can follow with interest, the views on Pantelism and Full Preterism - while still keeping my own viewpoint.

Which is just like Mary Baker Eddy, thought that her book - was a KEY to the scriptures. I take the Anglican saying of “Reason, Scripture, and Tradition”. But side with Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, that Sacred Tradition is a key - to understanding Holy Scripture. Just as the Wisdom Tradition, passed down over the centuries - keeps new age garbage, from getting in.

I still have my quirks, mind you. Like the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse . :wink:


#310

Oh man, in addition to everything else, you’re also more neutral than me? Geez, I can’t win. :laughing: :laughing: