A couple questions about the Rapture and hell

[pilgrim]

Or . . .pay closer attention to where men put pauses that perhaps God didn’t?? I have a few questions that I’d like to ask. One . … did the angels lie to those standing in earshot of what they were proclaiming immediately following the ascension of Jesus? “Just as YOU saw him go, YOU shall see him return . . .”
… “if” we’re to believe it’s for 2,000 years later, then it would also mean they “didn’t” return to “them” who were standing there.

Hi Nathan
I’ve just come across this thread and would like to take a look at your OP where you state that the text in Acts says that those standing there will, themselves, see Jesus return in like manner (you even put it in capitals). But that’s not what the text says - is it?

[Nathan]

Acts 1
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as **ye have seen him go **into heaven.

New Living Translation
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way **you **saw him go!”

Amplified
11Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up **from among you **into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which **you saw **Him go into heaven.

They all say the same thing . . .there’s no indication that he’s telling them in the far disant future, to another generation …like he told Daniel when he was to seal up the book. That’s not here. He was taken “from them” and just as “they saw” him go, he’ll return. To think that he’s telling “them” that he’ll return 2,000 years later is just not substantiated here.

I don’t know why you would imply I haven’t read it before now. He was talking directly “to them” about when Jesus left and how he’ll return “to them”. If you wish to see it another way, feel free to do so.

[pilgrim]

Acts 1
11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

New Living Translation
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way **you **saw him go!”

Amplified
11Who said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, Who was caught away and lifted up **from among you **into heaven, will return in [just] the same way in which **you saw **Him go into heaven.

Yes. They all support my point. They all say that Jesus will return in the same way they saw Him go. They do not say that those people will witness the return. They do not say what you wrote in your OP.

They all say the same thing . . .there’s no indication that he’s telling them in the far disant future, to another generation …like he told Daniel when he was to seal up the book. That’s not here. He was taken “from them” and just as “they saw” him go, he’ll return.

I agree.

To think that he’s telling “them” that he’ll return 2,000 years later is just not substantiated here.

I never said it was. Please don’t invent strawmen. What is also not substantiated here, is that those particular witnesses will also be alive to witness His return.

I don’t know why you would imply I haven’t read it before now.

I didn’t. I don’t know why you would state that I did.

He was talking directly “to them” about when Jesus left and how he’ll return “to them”.

The second ‘to them’ is not true. I’m surprised at you Nathan.

If you wish to see it another way, feel free to do so.

Its not a question of me seeing it a different way and I don’t need your permission to feel free. It’s a matter of me not being prepared to add to the text what is not there.
In your first post, you even put in quotes:

“Just as YOU saw him go, YOU shall see him return . . .”

It does not say “you shall see Him return” - just look at the translations you posted! Not one of them says that or even implies it.
You told another poster to ‘pay more attention’ with reference to eisegesis but you are guilty of it yourself.
With regards Jesus’ return, I am not insisting (from Acts 1) that the text either excludes nor includes the people standing there - because the text does neither.

[Nathan]

If the angels were not implying that “they’d” see him return as they saw him go … .then why did they say what they did? Why did they even bring it up? If someone told me directly this same thing, I would be expecting it to happen to me, not to some other generation because there was no indication that it was to happen generations later. “Just as you saw him go, he’ll also return . . .”

Just because “you” choose not to see it as a message that was directed “to them”, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t. But to say that it wasn’t to them but to some other generation is then jumping to conclusions because it “doesn’t” specify that. The reason why I brought it up in the first place is because traditional thought uses this passage as it’s proof that Jesus is returning “in the flesh”. And my response was, if you’re still expecting him to come in the flesh because of that passage, it means the angels lied to those they were speaking to. Just as YOU saw him go, he’ll be coming back . . …that’s still something directed to the people standing there . .regardless as to whether or not the author added anothere “to you”.

*I don’t know why you would imply I haven’t read it before now.

I didn’t. I don’t know why you would state that I did.*
Because you came back with the question "but that’s not what it says . . .is it??? Which indicates that I didn’t read it in the first place. Again . . .we see it differently.

[pilgrim]

If the angels were not implying that “they’d” see him return as they saw him go … .then why did they say what they did? Why did they even bring it up? If someone told me directly this same thing, I would be expecting it to happen to me, not to some other generation because there was no indication that it was to happen generations later. “Just as you saw him go, he’ll also return . . .”

That’s a reasonable question. There may be many reasons. For example, they may still have been expecting Jesus to immediately overthrow the Romans and set up His earthly kingdom, so when they saw Him leave, they were shocked - it’s not what they expected. Had He finished with the earth? Was he handing it over to satan? The angels reassured them that He would return to earth in physical form one day.

Just because “you” choose not to see it as a message that was directed “to them”, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t.

I DO see it as a message directed to them. The message was ‘He will return in like manner as they saw Him leave’.

But to say that it wasn’t to them but to some other generation is then jumping to conclusions

I repeat, it WAS to them

The reason why I brought it up in the first place is because traditional thought uses this passage as it’s proof that Jesus is returning “in the flesh”.

“In like manner” does imply a physical manifestation, yes.

And my response was, if you’re still expecting him to come in the flesh because of that passage,

-seems reasonable.

it means the angels lied to those they were speaking to.

No! The angels NEVER said that those standing there would witness His return

Just as YOU saw him go, he’ll be coming back .

yes

. …that’s still something directed to the people standing there .

indeed

.regardless as to whether or not the author added anothere “to you”.

No. You’re giving only one possible interpretation. There is no proof in the Acts 1 text that Jesus was to return to those standing there and please don’t keep saying that I’m turning the angels into liars - I’m not.

*I don’t know why you would imply I haven’t read it before now.

I didn’t. I don’t know why you would state that I did.*
Because you came back with the question "but that’s not what it says . . .is it???
Which indicates that I didn’t read it in the first place.

No it doesn’t and I don’t believe I used 3 question marks.

Again . . .we see it differently.

You’ve no idea what interpretation I give to the text. I’m just not prepared to pretend that the text says something it doesn’t.
I don’t think it profitable to continue going over the same ground. If you regard your eisegesis to be more important than other things, then that’s where you are on your journey and I wish you well. You are my brother in Christ and I really value much in your ministry.
May God continue to bless it.
Good day.