The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Critique of Penal Substitution

TV,

I do appreciate what you said regarding the practice of transferring sins. However, when God takes the Pharaoh’s son and puts a knife into his neck (figuratively speaking) It’s hard to say that the sin had been transferred.

The docrtine of Original sin seems still yet to me to argue in some sense of some legal grounds. I can’t say that infants learn to strike one another or to scream “mine” when another child tries to take something from them from their parents. It seems embedded in us is a nature which is bent already. So one one hand psychological nurturing is not the only reason why we do what we do.

Penal Substitution seems to me to require a transaction and I’m not ruling that out. I do agree that the penal part is problematic from the popular view that God punished an innocent person. I’m with Bob on that. But I won’t say that the popular reason is the only reason for penal substitution.

the question of the free gift is one I have myself and will give more thought to before just rambling off the top of my head. But for discussions sake, I tend to think it was always free.

Gene

Gene
As I see it, this is the only way it could be! Which is to say that God didn’t need convincing which is what PS implies. (ie no payment no forgiveness) The Cross is an announcement of the kind of God we are dealing with; A demonstration. It’s a means of underlining the truth, for all time!, that God is with us and even partakes in our experience of fallenness, (ie not aloof and distant) in that He actually submits Himself to us! Quite stunning really… Of course HE knows the truths behind the curtains so-to-speak; He knows that we can’t “kill” Him because HE knows where life actually comes from! So it’s WE who need this demonstrated.

Now I do appreciate your loyalty to the Penal Substitution model and your reluctance to abandon it. But don’t you think that after about the thousandth time you sinned, and asked forgiveness, and accepted that forgiveness and went forth – only to sin again – you would come to see that what you really needed was not someone to bear the penalty of that sin, but rather what you needed was to BE CHANGED so that you no longer would commit those sins!
That’s in large part why I see the PS system as so impotent Gene; I need most to be transformed into His likeness – not have my past sins “paid for”!

As to original sin, this need not in any way be seen as a legal doctrine at all does it? It’s the simple observation that something in the psyche and soul of Adam and Eve changed and the proclivity to rebel is passed down to us. And you are very very correct I think to mention this because (and not much is written about this in the Evangelical world it seems) in a real way the precise reverse of original sin really does seem to happen through Christ!! Which is very obviously suggested in Romans 5:18 and 1 Cor 15:22! But that’s a kinda scary thing because if the analogy holds, we had no choice in participating in Adam’s sin (it just fell to us) so maybe (?) a similar thing happens to us because of Christ’s saving act? An act which is completely effective in reconciling us? (Col 1:20) And maybe the most scary text of all in the bible – Romans 9:26 “So then is DOES NOT depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on GOD who has mercy!”

At any rate Gene, I see the notion of transference of sins as a strictly human enterprise and idea and is borne of mans frantic desire to distance himself from blame and shame which really are rightly our own. But God, in HIs mercy, understands that and so, if we believe we are restrained from coming to Him because of our sins, He even stoops to lift us up into the family again by telling us He’s taken the blame and punishment from us. Eventually though, it seems important for us to realize that this is an explanatory metaphor, and that the best way for God to “take” our sin is to heal us so we cease to be these little “sin factories”…

TotalVictory
Bobx3

TV,

I have sympathies on some points and some I’m not too sure of. I posted on point 4 that it appears to me that the non-penal substitution view doesn’t have a real good method of being perfected. When you ask if after the 1000th time I sinned and prayed for forgiveness, I’ll turn and ask are you more righteous now than those of the PS system? After all these years have you arrived? Or do you find yourself failing still? If you find yourself failing, then it’s not working is it?

In other words, if Penal Sub fails to perfect people (and I’m not sure it does) then I expect that non penal-sub are more holy and sin less and that is something I’m not sure of either. Are there people who believe that God graciously laid down his life for their own to take their place who live demonstrating such love to others? I expect there are.

So one point that I’m addressing here is not a disagreement that we need to change, but that God requires perfection. Non Penal-sub proponents seem to me to endorse that God does not require perfection - oooops there’s that license to not change (or to sin). If perfection is required then at point are we perfected? If not then we make excuses for God’s overlooking our sin which is exactly what you blame PS for when you state “not have my sins paid for”. So before I can totally rule out substitionary atonement, I need to know what it is I believe regarding atonement.

Now as I’ve stated I have little difficulty with the substitutionary part of this subject. The Penal part could be construed in different ways and that is why I’m reluctant to dismiss it.

But to say that Christ becomes my righteousness is not something I’m willing to just drop. I understand you and Bob to be arguing that you must become your own righteousness. And here is where things become ambiguous for me.

Regarding original sin. I’m not sure what you mean “legal doctrine” except you might mean “literal doctrine”. I myself render the Garden account quite differently from most and while I don’t take it literally, I do believe it’s meaning is literal. But there’s much to discuss regarding that whole story. Yes you’re right, as you probably recall, I do believe we are reconciled against our will in some sense (Romans 5.10). It’s not that while we repent or we are righteous that we were reconciled to God by Jesus’ death, but while we were enemies (against our volition). This for me is a statement which accords with Romans 9 and the other passages you’ve already posted. But I don’t want to derail this from Penal Sub.

So here’s my take. If penal sub could be re-interpreted in a different way I would be open to it. I reject the idea that God punished an innocent man and therefore I don’t consider myself a penal-sub. believer as most understand it. However, I’m more in favor of some sub. form of atonement than not. I’ve heard George Macdonald once stated “you must atone for your own sins” and that is where I’m not willing to go at this point. Perhaps he meant something different than that but as it stands, I would reject that statement.

Aug

TV,

Sorry actually on point 4 I made mention of God’s wrath being understood differently.

My point of non-penal substitutionary atonement also having a license to sin is a remark on point no. 8 on Bob’s paper.

Gene

Very interesting perspectives Gene and I am fascinated at the grip that PS really does have on many many people! And you are right in that we really are talking about a great many subjects all at the same time here!

I think maybe you missed my point however as you veer onto the topic of perfection. Seems to me that the ones whose sins have been paid for and borne away by the crucified Christ (as PS holds) should be the one who is therefore “perfect”. All I’m saying is that by the thousandth “sin” (but hopefully much much sooner!) it should be obvious that nothing has really happened or changed in this “bearing my penalty” fiction. And that what’s necessary is total transformation. So the reality of being saved has little or nothing to do with getting my sins paid for and everything to do with being transformed.

Are PS adherents in the process of being transformed? Of course! But I don’t see that as an extension of PS at all. Curious too that you see non PS models lending themselves to be a “license” to sin; seems PS suffers the same thing! After all, there’s an endless ability to have my misdeeds simply transferred away form me – leaving me right where I started!

I’ve never thought of non-PS atonement theology as leading to a more “perfect” believer so that’s an interesting observation. What I do see happening is the growth and development of this incredibly deep longing for transformation. A yearning to be remade – reborn! – into the likeness of Christ. But if my sins are literally transferred away from me as PS holds, from whence comes this longing and yearning? Do many PS believers have this yearning? Well sure – but it doesn’t seem to flow naturally from PS.

Also, as I see this theology developing, it seems to me that God’s great act of atonement at the cross has been forced into the prevailing legal justice frameworks of the day (first Anselm, later the reformers) instead of being seen as primarily relational. Few have described this history better (to me anyway!) than Weaver in his “The NonViolent Atonement”. I think it’s telling that you’d bring up a concept like “perfection” because in the legal models like PS that’s a very rigid and absolute thing and something we simply have no access to. Thus we need concepts of Christ “becoming my righteousness” to “cover us”. And that would be… to… what – protect us from God? But consider what the word “perfect” might look like from a relational perspective… (And isn’t reconciliation a relational word??) Can a parent of a newborn have a “perfect” relationship with that child? Sure! lots of upside potential as yet unrealized, but perfect nonetheless!

Be that as it may, I thought you’d enjoy this from Weaver’s book p75…
From a section titled OUR ROLE IN JESUS’ DEATH where he really does try to be respectful of some of the more common PS language and imagery…

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Bobx3

TV,

Perhaps we’re flying be each other without knowing it. If that’s what’s necessary (and PS agrees) then the real difference isn’t if PS fails at that but whether it’s logically possible for PS to accomplish it or not. From your response I can’t tell how a non PS theory might provide the complete transformation unless you tell me “I no longer sin”. At that point I will agree with you and say “well, I suppose you were right all along”. However, I’ll repeat myself…If you are still sinning then it isn’t working.

There are PS adherents who I expect do support that they are being transofmed daily (from glory to glory) by the renewing of the mind. Sure you will point that this is inconsistent with the PS premise that they are already perfected. But I asked the alternative. If you tell me that one does not have to be perfected in order to enter heaven (that is liars, murderes, adulterers) then I have to reject that. And that leads me to believe that no one except the Christ has died in such a perfect state…meaning everyone who has died with the exception of the Christ is in hell burning and that sounds VERY non biblical to me. Of course you could say (as I’ve already pointed out) that perfection is not required but that translates to me as “being transformed completely is not the goal - the Image of God does not need to be complete”.

So my point is that non PS does not offer any better explanation and suffers similar defects. I do think it’s better to understand that we all have conflicts with our understanding of the atonement. It seems to evade our literal minds. I don’t think Weaver’s words have to be rejected by a PS proponent. Perhaps Weaver states in his book how it all works, but I’m sure there’s going to be loads of questions and my money says he’s not going to have all the answers…meaning - there is still lots of ambiguity.

In my experience the polarizing of ideas leads us to believe one side or the other, we either accept determinism or libertarian freedom. We either accept grace or we endorse works. We either read it literally or we approach it allegorically. I feel this subject is no different.

The ultimate question for me is this:

  1. if perfection is required (tranformation - no sin) then is it achieved in this life?

You answered regarding relationship. But if you say that a relationship with God which manifests sin is ok with God (or it’s perfect) then of couse my charge would stand - you’ve just licensed people to live in sin. How is that any better than PS?

Gene

Wow Gene: we really are “flying past” each other – as well as talking past each other etc etc!

It seems to me that a large basis for this is that for you sin seems to be a matter of doing; for me it’s a matter of being. Perfection for those who think of sin as a matter of doing is impossible; and is therefore only achievable via the “transfer of sin” and the “imputed righteousness” paradigms which are the essence of PS thinking. So I don’t even think in terms of being “perfect” at all – how much clearer can the bible be that we ARE all sinners? – yet for you it’s “the ultimate question”!

But this dynamic is talked about frequently in the bible it seems to me:
To those who approach Jesus saying “Lord Lord we DID all those things!” (ie in their minds had achieved a kind of perfection) He says “depart – I never knew you.”
And Paul in Romans 9 in the context of defending God’s right to extend mercy to whomever He wants says “So then it does NOT depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy!”
Plus all the places (like Eph 2 etc) where it’s categorically claimed that it’s mercy that saves us, not our own efforts…
… yet to talk of perfection in the PS system is to be obsessed with a legal definition of sin and if sin is a legal problem then of course it needs a legal solution. Enter payment of penalties and robes of righteousness which are clearly fictions if literal because we still know ‘ol Bobx3 is a sinner through and through.

As I see this in the context of the story of the prodigal son, the PS model is as if the son insists on making restitution (payment of penalty) to his Father before he can come home. And he DID try that! And the Father explicitly refused any of that equivalence wanting only for the boy to realize his identity and that he already (while yet a “sinner!”) belonged and it would be far better for all of them if he began to act like he belonged! Act like it not in order to belong, but because he already did belong! How on earth does “perfection” fit here??

So if you are hearing me suggest…

…then clearly you should steer far far away from that.

And of course the reason why certain folks like myself do not believe the Penal Substitution model of the Atonement is because we believe that it says not just wrong things about God, but bad/evil things as well. And I really do think that wrong and/or bad conclusions about God do have negative implications in our Christian journey. And one of those is an obsession with legalities and behavior to the detriment of grace and mercy. (and see Bob Wilson’s entire list!)

So I suppose that if the believer in Penal Substitution disavows and rejects all those conclusions that so offend we non PS believers, there’s not much to talk/worry about!
Thus while it sure seems logical (to me) that PS strongly implies (if not quite explicitly) that God is effected into changing His stance towards sinners by Christ’s death yet the PS believer doesn’t actually hold that idea (logical as it may seem) then what’s the big deal…

Or if PS seems to hold that God demands violence against an innocent victim in order to accept the sinner, yet the PS believer insists thats not the mechanism in play, of course I’m happy he doesn’t believe that!

As for Weaver’s book, you’d have to read it and decide for yourself I guess. Though I found it far less ambiguous than you imagine it to be!

And great topic Gene for this weekend in particular!
Blessed Easter

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Also curious if Bob Wilson has a diagnosis on why we seem to be talking past each other?? :smiley:

I’m not sure that I’m discerning what the points of contention are. I think Gene sees a need for honoring an ‘objective’ transaction in order to assure sinners that they can be acceptable to God even though they don’t meet the required standards. But I’m not clear on what texts are being understood as requiring “perfection,” or being “without sin” (certainly at least in this life). My impression is that God had never dealt with people in terms of assuming a requirement like that. I.e. God has always been capable of overlooking and forgiving imperfection when God deems that to be appropriate. But that truth is stretched by the reality that God places great importance on a genuinely repentant transformation that yields the practical fruit of love. So for me, the question is what understanding of the cross and the Biblical story best accords with God’s overarching pursuit and achievement of that. One of my fears is that P.S. tends to lead people to assume that such mature character is not at the center of God’s priorities, but instead provides a ‘substitute’ for such a ‘requirement’ in us.

(in the accent of Ricky Ricardo) Lucy, you must esplain!

I’m confused. On one hand I understand both of you (Bob’s) to hold concerns regarding PS and it’s flaw that it does not require people to repent.

On the other hand it seems that a non-PS is good with God not requiring perfection (which means God overlooks -some- sins). Or dare I say, God’s ok with you not being transormed.

I do agree with traditional Christianity that the imagery of having no stains, those who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, or no immoral people will enter the kingdom of heaven will require perfection.

Now PS (especially under dispensationalism) subscribers usually do believe God is going to perfect them; for in the twinkling of an eye we will all be changed. And I do believe that many PS people believe in a daily tranformation. And even Calvinists do not say - the elect need no repentance. PS subscribers do believe repentance is required. Now that might not be consisten with their view. But I don’t think PS is simply a defective doctrine that automatically teaches people don’t have to repent.

So I’ll illustrate my point.

Imagine if someone were to argue that Universalist don’t take sin seriously. Well that might be true for some Universalists. but Universalism is not the problem. Or imagine if someone were to complain that Universalism fails to promote Jesus as the only way to the Father (salvation/reconciliation); pluralism. Well that might be true of some Universalists.

My caveats here are just a few points: Namely, non PS does not offer an explanation except to reiterate the problem they see with PS.

Ok Bob W. (Dad, lol we talk about this all the time) so if God does not require perfection then how do you promote repentance? If God requires repentance, then the obvious question is why does he not seek our perfection? If you say he does seek our pefection, but does not require it, then why is repentance required if he does not require repentance of all sin?

PS seems to me to be partly an explanation of how perfect people will enter the city who have no stains but only white robes. Sure their robes are the righteous acts of the saints but that does not rule out PS. I imagine the point is that nothing unclean will enter the city. So PS provides a way by which people who live by the spirit but are still attached to their sinful nature in the flesh, will be rescued (ala Rom 7) from that very sinful enslavement.

So here’s my question to both Bob’s: How does a non PS interpret

For me the perfecting of us is important. I have difficulty distinguishing between a “legal” and a “relational” paradigm. To me they’re very similar. I believe the truth is that under either paradigm the same rules apply - God seeks our perfection and will achieve our perfection. How he does that seem to me to be the mystery which is why scholars write book of disagreement on this subject.

Auggy,

I’ve never said: P.S. folk eliminate the call to repent, that they all do any particular thing, that “God’s o.k. with no transformation” (cf. line 6), nor that non-P.S. can’t also believe God eliminates our sinfulness post-mortem.

It’s also not clear to me that texts insisting that we be moral, washed, etc, are requiring sinless perfection.

You seem to imply that P.S. better promotes repentance because (1) it requires perfection, and (2) provides a way to perfect us by defeating our “sinful enslavement.” Can you explain how it more effectively does that? And if you mean that God just unilaterally perfects us after death, how would that better promote repentance in this life?

Since the core of my rejoinder was questioning supposed “texts requiring perfection,” I’m not sharing your perception that what God seeks and requires is sinless “perfection,” and certainly not if this is only something meaninfully present after a post-mortem miracle provides it. What I argued is that God seeks and requires a maturing, loving, and repentant life (albeit imperfect) in the present, and that it seemed to me that the logic of the system P.S. often assumes does not focus our attention on this pursuit because it asserts that a ‘substitute’ has been provided which cancels out the need for God’s former insistence on a practical righteousness.

The effective logic of that can’t be compared with all generic ‘non-P.S.’ views since they are diverse. But my impression is generally that they better empower us and focus us more directly on how we live out our present life, by e.g. assuring us that we can experience present victory over the powers of evil and temptation, by focusing us on the model of the kind of love upon which God puts a premium, by assuring us that good will ultimately triumph, by exposing the painful consequences of our failures to repent and to love, by exhibiting to us the kind of gracious response God can have to we sinners despite our imperfection, etc.

What they seem to share in common that I find more compatible with the Bible’s narrative and focus, is agreement that how we live in this present age determines how God will judge and deal with us in the age to come (rather than the common impression that our doctrinal affirmation is what assures our freedom from God’s future purifying measures). So if in fact I’m right, that the O.T., Jesus, and Paul all assume that we must obey God’s law in this part of our journey, then it seems to me that any view of the cross which reinforces that is apt to be more helpful than one which typically calls that into question.

Bob,

It’s hard for me to accept some of the points you make because the differences I’m looking for are not clear to me. If PS calls for repenance which you seem to say it does then does that translates to a call to obey the law of Jesus? I’m not saying they do. I’m saying it can. I’ve been stating over and over that a more popular view of PS might in fact do away with repentance.

I feel as if I’m misunderstanding you because what seems clear to me continues to not be addressed. For example, when I ask - regarding a non-ps view of perfection - for an interpretation of Rev that “no unclean thing will ever enter the city” I only get a reinforcement that God does not require perfection. Well perhaps we’re talking apples and oranges. But I don’t think we are. I also offered up the traditional view that “we will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye”. Now I realize these passages could be interpreted by preterists to mean something totally different. But even if I was a preterist, I’m not sure that what you’re saying is clear to me.

I’m not promoting that PS does a better job, only that it seems to me that it does not have to be viewed as a license for sin as stated in point 8 (sorry I corrected my earliest response where I referenced point 4). In point 8 you state:

So why do you tell me that it can promoted repentnace? Perhaps the real difference here is that I’m commenting regarding the logic of penal substitution where you’re commenting on a popular view of penal substitution. Because I agree with you PS can promote repentance unto holy living and if that’s true then no. 8 is false. For holy living is to be concerned with ongoing sins.

My other issue regards that, as far as I understand you, the penal part of PS is not the only problem. No. 8 seems dead set against the substitutionary idea that Christ might have attainted perfection (Heb4:15; 2Cor5:21; 1Pet2:22) so that we might be perfected. Now whether one agrees or not, for me this all pivots on whether unclean things will enter the city of not. So being perfect in every way as Jesus is seems to me to be biblical.

So perhaps a paper is necessary in order to prove that perfection is not required to enter the new Jerusalem. Or shall I say the city which gates are never shut does allow for small sins or the not so bad sinners to enter it’s gates. For me the text says it doesn’t happen. But I admit, I’m not well studuied on this subject. My reponses have been primarily from my upbringing.

Guess I’m confused too: I had no idea I was conveying any notion at all that repentance is not required!
But under the PS system it seems the situation is far more dire and desperate. Because if the sinner is only reckoned clean/pure/forgiven upon repentance and has thereby activated the payment paradigm, shouldn’t he be in a constant state of repentance? Forever worried and wondering if he’s missed something? Sounds like a recipe for the very sort of worried tension about our salvation that Christ explicitly eschews!

Again, the problem seems unimaginably worse for PS because it should be obvious that none of us are perfect (all have sinned and fallen short… If anyone says he does not sin he is a liar… etc) and merely clinging to a fictitious accounting gimmick surely isn’t what God has in mind! (ie you can say my sin has been transferred, but will anyone deny that it was still me who committed it? Of course not.) Seems to me that merely delays what God is really after…
To the returned prodigal son, at what point shall we declare him “perfect”? Isn’t it obvious that perfection simply was not the issue you insist it is as a precondition for his being welcomed home? The boy’s IMperfection is quite obvious: and yet what mattered to the Father was that the boy simply come back home… So the boy comes home and has his prepared speech roundly ignored. Is the boy “perfect” now? Seems not: yet is more so than he was back in the pig sty…

Well yes – it is very brilliant and moving imagery to be sure. Great hymns carry these themes and inspire deeply. But don’t you find that this could just as well be a description (and promise!) of what we will become like when we center our lives around God and His grace? With your emphasis on perfection the gaze seems to be in the opposite direction; inward.

.

This is simply not the case. There are any number of wonderful explanations that many find far more consistent with the bibles trajectory than PS. Greg Boyd for example does a wonderful job in a fairly short space of explaining his Christus Victor understanding.

Though I do recognize that if you believe that the problem is a nail, then of course the proper solution is a hammer. One gravitates to the theology that answers the most questions and which paints the more complete picture. But that’s true of anything really…

I quite agree that PS believers often do understand the need for transformation but it seems they do this despite PS – not because of it. There is nothing about PS per se that requires it. PS sees sin as a legal problem and thus, understandably offers a legal solution. (This reminds me in a way of the awkward place the resurrection has in PS theology. Payment’s been demanded and made. That’s it. PS has no reason to need the resurrection. Of course PS believers *do *hold the resurrection to be important, but they do this despite PS – not because of PS.)

Personally I find the quest for perfection to be dangerous and a severe distraction to what God is trying to accomplish in me. For in contemplating it I’m focused inwards; not on God. Further, I think perfection is important to God but it’s He who decides that and it has little to do with my perceptions of my own perfection. See the bewildered expression of those welcomed in by Jesus: Jesus’ welcome implies perfection – but they themselves seem unaware of it! Contra the ones who were aware of their perfection (But Lord! We did all those things for You!!!)
So sure – perfection! But that’s for God to measure and detect and achieve, not us.

So to close this bright Easter Morning (Happy and Blessed Easter by the way men!) I think this is where you should place your perfection concerns auggy

2 Corinthians 3:18 (NIV)
And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

TotalVictory
Bobx3

Auggy,

Like TV, I was admitting: PS folk do sometimes think (i.e. illogically) repentance is vital.

You say: “The logic of PS can promote repentance.” For it insists on perfection and can “translate to a call to obey the law of Jesus.” Since (in #8) I don’t see that, can you explain how it does that?

You say: Substitution’s necessity pivots on Rev’s need to be “clean,” which you render as “perfect in every way.”

But: A. If we must be that now, no one will be accepted. Yet in Biblical tradition, the repentant and largely (tho imperfectly) obedient were accepted as “clean.”

B. If you just mean we must be transformed into some kind of ‘perfection’ in another world,

  1. Why couldn’t God’s grace do that without PS?
  2. If you mean that God will treat some sinners as if they were clean, then we must ask, on what basis does He determine who is treated that way? If it is that we accepted that a substitute price was paid, how will that sustain “repentance unto holy living”? Or, might I be apt to assume: Since I have indicated my acceptance that the full payment for the penalty of being unrighteous has been satisfied, then holy living is really optional?

Why wouldn’t an interpretation of the cross that sees changing the sinful way that we live as its’ central function (rather than God’s need to maintain his character by exacting a penalty for sin) be more likely to keep our focus on the need to remain repentant in our life?

Bob,
Have you done some writing on the verses that speak of Christ as “propitiation” in ROmans and 1 John?
I would like to see your take on those.
r

Roofus, I’ve written much unposted on ‘propitiation,’ sacrifice,’ and Rom. 3. (I do comment on this some in my posted OT paper, and in my PS thread under soteriology). But it seems the foundational issue in Rom. 3 & 1 John is the meaning of hilasterion. So what’s more critical than my views is its’ discussion in the standard Bible dictionaries, most of which I’d affirm. I’m esp. impressed by Judith Gundry’s article on it in the Evangelical Theological Dictionary. Thus, contra e.g. Leon Morris, I’d side with most who doubt ‘propitiation’ is a proper translation, and see a primary reference to the ‘mercy seat,’ with connotations that accord more with ‘expiation.’ Thus I think that what the cross changes requires more than the lexicon, and must encompass all the relevant texts about Jesus’ sacrificial ‘atonement.’

What do you think hilasterion means? Do you see it conveying that God has anger which is resolved in the act of inflicting pain on people, or esp. so if the punishment is placed upon the innocent? If so, why do you believe that this is what would in itself satisfy God?

Several years ago, I began writing a booklet entitled The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I think chapter 2 addresses the issues which are being discussed in this thread. So I thought I would share that chapter with you.

[size=150]Chapter Two[/size]
The Means of Mercy

The Substitutionary Theory of Atonement

Is “the atonement” the supreme sacrifice offered to appease an angry God, a means of covering our sin so that God who is holy and cannot tolerate sin does not see our sins but Christ’s righteousness? Was Christ a substitute for us who took upon Himself the punishment which we deserve, so that we won’t have to go to hell? Is the atonement the means by which to get to heaven in spite of our sinful human natures, in spite of our tendency to go on sinning throughout this brief span of life lived in a fallen world? Is this the plan and purpose of God — to justify taking a few to heaven by the “atoning work” of His Son and sending over 99% of people to eternal retribution? Are these ideas consistent with the divine attributes of the Creator of the Universe? How can His love and His justice be reconciled to this concept of the atonement?
The notion of the death of Christ being a means of appeasing a just God has led to the concept of Christ offered to God as our substitute, so that we would not have to take the punishment we deserve, eternal hell, but Jesus, the infinite God was able to take that infinite punishment on Himself in a finite period of time. There are some questions we might ask the proponents of this theory. Does the atonement, cover us all automatically, or is there something we must do to appropriate it? Most who espouse the substitutionary theory of atonement hold that there is indeed something we must do, although there is no “work” which we can do that will help us at all. Subscribers to this theory define “works” to be “good deeds which we have done in hopes that they will in some way make up for our wrongdoing, and balance the scale of justice in our favour”. Eph 2:8 is usually quoted at this point:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV

The verse immediately following is seldom quoted. That verse reads,

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. KJV

There is some variation in opinion as to what we actually must do to appropriate the “covering” so that we can get to heaven in spite of our sin, but there a common thread seems to run through the teaching as to what we must do. Usually it is taught that we must first recognize a number of facts:

What follows are the supposed facts:

  1. We are indeed sinners.

  2. Christ has died in our place.

  3. We need to be saved (This is understood as the necessity of being saved from hell).

  4. We are helpless to save ourselves.

  5. We can be saved only by grace (This is understood to be the unmerited favour of God).
    Now having recognized these facts, what we must do is :

  6. Call upon Jesus to save us by His grace or in virtue of His shed blood.
    and/or

  7. Believe (or trust) in the finished work of Christ to save us.

If we have done one or both of these two things, we are considered to be “justified” ( a word understood to mean “just as if I’d never sinned”, and saved from hell, for “God said it; I believe it; that settles it.”
In teaching this way to be saved, usually repentance is not mentioned at all, but if it is, it is thought to mean “feeling sorry for our sin” and then being ready to “accept Christ” as our “personal Saviour”. “Accepting Christ” seems to mean recognizing Christ’s “atoning work” and calling upon Him for salvation from hell.

Imagine two men, Jack, and Chris. Both have lived selfish, useless lives. Each has lived as a drunkard, as a thief, and as an adulterer. Each has continued in that way of life until death. Both appear before God to be assigned to their destiny. God says, “Jack, I see by the records that on October 12, 1978, you accepted my son Jesus as your personal Saviour. Okay, you’re covered. I’m not mad at you anymore. You can go to heaven forever. Chris, I cannot find any record of your having accepted Jesus as your Saviour. I am utterly enraged at you. To hell with you forever!”

Most people would see in this scenario the action of a unfair and unloving God. But one who subscribes to the substitutionary theory of atonement would have no difficulty whatever! He would say that God’s words to Jack demonstrates His love and mercy, and His words to Chris demonstrates His “justice”. How astonishing — that God is considered to exhibit two contradictory characteristics, love towards the less than 1% of mankind who “accept Christ as their personal Saviour” to whom He extends His mercy, but hate toward over 99% of humanity to whom he wreaks his vengeance through His judgment of everlasting torment! Useless torment --— with no purpose other than causing pain and suffering forever.!
As far as reality is concerned, what people think on any topic is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what God has revealed. In this booklet, it is my purpose to show what is found in the Bible concerning Christ’s sacrifice and its purpose.

At this point I want to emphasize that the substitutionary theory of atonement is just that — a theory of atonement. Any reputable theology text book will present several other theories on the subject. But the substitutionary theory has so permeated every aspect of Christian teaching today that it is difficult for us to conceive of the sacrifice of Christ in any other way. Was Christ’s sacrifice a way of appeasing a God who was angry about sin? Does Christ’s death meet some “legal demand” which requires the death of a sinless person? Is God “satisfied” with the excruciating death of His sinless Son? How does the death of an innocent victim “satisfy” God’s justice? Is God bound by the spiritual legalities which He Himself has established?

In considering the various elements of the substitutionary theory let’s first look at the “sacrifice” aspect. Does the living God require sacrifices to appease His wrath? Someone will say, “Oh no. Not any more. Christ was the supreme sacrifice to God. But under the old covenant He required them.” REALLY? What good do they do Him? Is it not the heathen religions of the world that try to appease their gods with sacrifice, try to keep them from getting angry, try to avoid their wrath? Does the Creator of the Universe require this kind of appeasement? How did He feel about the Israelites trying to appease Him in this way? Through Isaiah, Yahweh spoke, calling the people “rulers of Sodom” and “people of Gomorrah”

*Isaiah 1:10-20 Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! "What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says Yahweh; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he‑goats. When you come to appear before me, who requires of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.”

“Come now, let us reason together,” says Yahweh, "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.*
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As always, Yahweh, the great Creator, wanted righteousness. He wanted the Israelites to clean themselves from their evil ways. He wanted them to learn to do good, and He gave concrete of examples of what that meant. He wanted obedience from them. This is also made clear in the following passage from Jeremiah 7:22,23

For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ Jeremiah 7:22,23

What does the word “atonement” mean?
In the King James Version of the New Testament, the word “atonement” occurs only once.

*Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. *

But it ought not to be so translated! The Greek word καταλλαγη from which it is translated means not “atonement” but “reconciliation”. The previous verse reads:

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Oddly enough, the King James translators rendered the verbal form of καταλλαγη as “reconciled” in verse 10! Why not the nominal form as “reconciliation” in verse 11? Oh the wonders of translation!

It is only in the sense that καταλλαγη has been mistranslated “atonement” that we can correctly affirm that the breakdown “at-one-ment” as expressing the meaning of “atonement.”

The Revised Standard Version and other modern versions are consistent in their translation of these verses:

Romans 5:10,11
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.

It is wonderful to be reconciled to God! We can indeed rejoice that this has been made possible through our Lord Jesus Christ, through His precious blood, through His death on our behalf!

The Greek Words ἱλασμος (hilasmos) and ἱλαστηριον (hilastārion)

The words used in the Greek New Testament and rendered as “atonement” or “atoning sacrifice in some modern translations are ἱλασμος (1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10) and ἱλαστηριον Rom 3:25, Heb 9:5). Both are derived from the verbal form ἱλασκομαι The Hebrew word translated as “atonement” is “kippur” and is usually rendered as ἐξιλαστηριον in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, translated about 250 B.C. in the reign of Ptolemy. Note that it differs from the New Testament word only by the addition of the prefix ἐξ (out of ). The verbal form of the Hebrew word “kippur” is “kaphar”.
In the King James Version, ἱλασμος is translated as “propitiation”, that is, an appeasement or conciliation of an offended power. It is so rendered also by Darby, by the Douay translators, and by the translators of the King James Version and of Young’s Literal Translation.

The translators of the Revised Standard Version render ἱλασμος as “expiation”, that is, the act of making amends of reparation for wrongdoing. This is also the meaning of the English word “atonement.” In current English, “atone” is used in precisely the same way as “expiate.” If I accidentally run into the neighbour’s fence post and break it off, the neighbour may tell me, “You’re going to have to atone for that!” In other words, I’m going to have to “make up for it” in some way, perhaps by repairing the fence myself. In the NIV and the NRSV ἱλασμος is translated as “atoning sacrifice.”

The translators of the KJV and the Douay also render ἱλαστηριον as “propitiation” in Rom 3:25, and in the RSV it is translated as “expiation.” However in Heb 9:5, the translators of the KJV render the same word as “mercy seat”! It is so rendered also by Darby, and by the translators of the RSV, the NRSV, and Young’s Literal Translation. Mercy seat! That meaning is quite different from either “propitiation” or “expiation.”

Perhaps a look at the verbal form of the words would be helpful in deciding the true meaning of the words ἱλασμος and ἱλαστηριον.

ἱλασκομαι [Strong’s 2433]

Lu 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ RSV

In this parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, every translation of which I am aware translates ἱλασκομαι as “be merciful”. ἱλασκομαι is derived from the adjectival form ἱλιως, the meaning of which is “merciful”, and is so translated in Hebrews 8:12:

For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. RSV

Curiously, the RSV translators render the word differently in Heb 2:17:

Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. RSV

Does consistency demand that the final phrase be translated as “to be merciful concerning the sins of the people”? If the verbal form means “be merciful” and the adjectival form means “merciful”, could the nominal forms be rendered as “means of mercy”? Let’s see how the verses would read if that were done:

** ἱλασμος [Strong’s 2434]**

  • 1Jo 2:2 and he is the means of mercy concerning our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
    1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the means of mercy concerning our sins.*

ἱλαστηριον [Strong’s 2435]

*Ro 3:25 … whom God put forward as a means of mercy by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."
Heb 9:5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. *

We can leave the translation in Heb 9:5 as “mercy seat,” though under Mosaic law it was indeed considered a “means of mercy.”

One may confidently affirm that the translations which render ἱλαστηριον and ἱλασμος as “propitiation”, a word which carries the idea of appeasement and averting of wrath are not correct. Our examination of the passages quoted above would cast doubt even upon the translation of these words as “expiation” or “atonement”. I suggest “means of mercy” as an appropriate translation of these words, a translation that is correct etymologically as well as contextually
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What a mercy the grace of Christ, that divine enablement! This enablement is described in Titus 2:11, 12:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and pious lives in this world.

O gracious Yahweh! Through your son Jesus, and the words with which you have inspired your apostles, help us to understand more fully the means of mercy through the Anointed One, by which you have made available to us the process of salvation from sin. May this understanding help us to more fully appreciate your love and grace, to be better prepared, through your enabling grace, to show others the way to enter the door of salvation, to become your children, and thus to press on toward completion, to be conformed to the image of your son, and to be among the many brothers and sisters of the resurrection, of whom Jesus is the first born.

I’m currently going through Paidion’s paper as well and am putting together some notes on the subject. I’ll try to tackle both Bob’s and Paidion’s statements with one response rather than writing 20 replies here on the forum.

Here the waters are murky no doubt. My main concern is not to say I know Penal Sub. is right but moreso that I tend to see glimpses that it might be right.

It seems to me that it’s unfair to simply lump all views of Penal Substitution together just as it’s unfair to lump all forms of Universalism together. So I’m tending to think there may be variations of understanding the metaphors. In this case Penal substitution seem to me to have two particular facets which support repentance.

As in most views of Christian tradition, the salvation/reconciliation is viewed or understood to be both past and present.
If one polarizes so far that justification is in the future when God shall declare his people justified then they’ve not yet been justified. If God is coming back to save his people, then they’re not yet saved. If God’s kingdom is coming then it’s not here.

But we all accept that the strange language of scripture shows us that these things are here. We are justified by grace (rom 3), Reconciled (Romans 5), saved (Eph 2) all expressing the presence of those very things which are coming.

While Penal Sub. subscribers acknowledge they’re saved - they also acknowledge that perseverence is a neccessary component to their faith (be it Calvinism or Arminianism). But the charge Bob raises here seems exactly the same:

If they’re already saved then what promotes any need to persevere?

This to me is a polarized statement. for one could just as eaisly say: None of us are saved, or Christ has reconciled nothing but will in the future. The Kingdom of God’s not here but wait and see. My point is that they live within a tension and thus appear to be contradictory. They speak from two different ends of the spectrum.

Now what is it about Christ covering sins which God overlooks?

I find this to be somewhat misleading. I myself don’t believe in a PS system that God has to “overlook” the sins. God could be angry with the sinner. God could even want to turn his anger to joy. this does not require an image that presents God as some monster in heaven. Instead it could be seen that God (under a PS system) deals with the sin. God does not overlook it, but wipes it clean - thus those who wash their robes in the blood of the lamb produce fruits of the spirit (righteous acts of the saints) which is signified by “white robes with no stains”.

So these dynamics of Penal substitution call for two things: Perseverence and Perfection. I do realize that justice is another facet of PS that needs to be discussed but I’m not concerned with that at this time. It’s the repentance and the need or purity that I wish to pursue.

Point A only begs the question. On what grounds? Was the sacrifice that God provided a mean by which people were accepted as clean or did they have to continue to sacrifice? If repentance is the means by which salvation is achieved (and I see no other way to avoid that under a non PS view) then why did the priest have to continue to make sacrifices. One could argue because they were unrepentant.

If one repents, does that person repent of every single sin? Does God accept some sins and some he does not? Is perfection a goal of God’s or is it not? Do people achieve repentance of all sins before exiting this life?

If a non-PS view holds to the perfection requirement to enter the city but God can wave the magic grace wand, then that would mean that their need to be perfect in this life is unnecessary (or the need to repent is destroyed as it is in the PS system). - For in such a view God is “overlooking” their sins.

If a non-PS view holds that perfection is not required, then God will overlook their sins and the unclean will enter the city. One need not repent of all sins to be saved only Bob Wilsons list of haneous acts. LOL (kidding).

This leads me to the point that both PS and non-PS have the same difficulty.

  1. God’s mercy can overlook sin or it cannot.

Since mercy is a part of both systems then they must provide a way but which people who die in this life not yet perfected will enter the kingdom of heaven.

So Universalism seems to provide some future insight on this discussion.

To answer the 2nd question: PS usually (I believe) endorses that there be some form of repentance - which is translated - they call on the name of the Lord because they realize (in at least a minimal way) they are in need of God’s mercy.
The belief that God has provided a judicial means to not commit hatred unto them for their sins they seem to fail with leads them to embrace a merficul God rather than one who beats the pulp out of someone for every single failure. Thus God providing the impossible (perfection) is seen as an act of love - not of irresponsibility.

** Edit **
I mean to say that in PS God provides a judicial means by which their sins are pardoned rather than beating the pulp out of the unrepentant transgressor. In other words it’s seen as an act of mercy.

How does substituionary or vicarious atonement work: Well if I could answer that, I woulnd’t be poor now would I.

Hope this was coherent. I’m often told…“what?”

Perhaps large posts like this are worthless and taking one point at a time would be wiser. So perhaps I could outline my points and then move from there.

Gene

Question: per no. 8.

Bob, do you think kindness within a penal substitutionary view can be a means by which repentance is promoted? If PS believers understand that PS is a act of mercy then couldn’t they claim that God’s kindness leads them to repentance?

How do non PS folk interpret the scripture that says that “the LORD was pleased To crush Him”, in Isaiah 53? I apologize if tons of ink has already been spilled on this scripture.