The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Non-UR Way To Accept UR Scripture Passages At Face Value?

A comrade of mine, Chad McIntosh, reports this attempt from theologian Michael Murray to try to incorporate the affirmation of apparently universalistic passages at face value while still disaffirming universal salvation.

(Edited to correct: unlike later, at this point I had misunderstood MM to be attempting this which Chad was reporting. In fact, Chad was speculating about picking up and deploying MM’s arguments about the Image of God in humans, in order to see if they could be used to accept UR scripture passages at face value yet in a non-UR way. Unfortunately, later I still composed a rather sloppy description which easily looked like I was claiming the same thing–to which I have also added a clarification. See also Chad’s corrective comment below.)

appearedtoblogly.wordpress.com/2 … ace-value/

It’s slightly more sophisticated than it sounds. :wink: But I have problems.

The first two that came to mind:

1.) MM’s approach treats the imago Dei as though it is some kind of static feature of the person which exists on its own (after having been created) without continuing active upkeep by God (somewhat similar to Nature as a whole in minimal or even nominal deism proposals). If the human damages it, God has nothing He can do about that; if the imago is repaired, God presumably has nothing to do with that, either–God is tacitly excluded from salvation of the spirit entirely, as well as from being anything more than a ‘legally’ rightful lord of the created spirit.

If the imago Dei does not exist independently of God after creation, however, but continues to depend on God for its existence at any point, then while the free will granted to the person may damage the imago in rebellion God always retains a foothold. He brought the imago Dei into existence, and no doubt can take it out of existence again, but God always has the final say as to how far the imago may be destroyed, just as God always has the first and foremost say in the salvation of the imago from the corruption of rebellion. Obviously, being a bodiless spirit (so far as this natural reality is concerned anyway) makes no inherent difference at all in the possibilities of this: otherwise angels would not have fallen, and unfallen angels would not be fit for companionship with God!

MM’s account, so far as reported, rather ignores unfallen non-human persons as part of the overall data, restricting the scope of his account to human persons and to fallen non-human persons. But then, that would dovetail with:

2.) MM has overly restricted the scope of the accounts of salvation of sinners from sin. While some scriptures indicating universal salvation from sin only speak of human persons, others (especially in context with OT references) speak of all created persons coming out of their rebellion to be loyal to God without distinguishing between human and non-human persons–and sometimes even explicitly including reference to non-human rebels. While some of those are obscure, others are pretty well known: I have difficulty believing Michael Murray is not including Colossians 1 in his account of face-value universalism scriptures, for example, but his theory (as reported) shows no sign of taking Paul’s emphatic emphases about the scope of reconciliation to God (“all things I say, whether in the heavens or on the earth!” for example) at anything like face value. (Admittedly, Col 1 doesn’t strictly affirm that God will succeed at reconciling all created persons who need reconciliation to Himself, whether visible or invisible, whether in the heavens or on the earth, whether thrones or powers or principalities, etc. But the scope of God’s action doesn’t fit MM’s theory.)

Last week, Chad put together an initial paper attempting to pick up and run with Michael Murray’s argument.

(Edited to clarify: I mean to pick up and deploy MM’s argument in a way so as to accept UR scripture passages at face value in a non-UR fashion. While MM, if I am thinking of the same Michael Murray, is known for writing at least one important paper vs. univesalism, he himself was not making the argument Chad is attempting here. See also Chad’s corrective comment below.)

It can be found as a pdf attachment at this post on his web journal.

I have only read through the first couple of pages, and between those and a reply from him (to someone else) in the comments, I can tell I’ll probably have more technical problems with this attempt than with his original thoughts on the topic. :wink:

But being very busy with ‘work’ work, and with ginning up a commentary on Paul Manata’s recent argument elsewhere, I thought I’d give other members a chance to go through it before I start chewing on it publicly. :smiley:

do the non universalists answer “all things I say, whether in the heavens or on the earth!” with an interpretation of “all” to mean something other than literal “all”?

My experience is that they call into question the meaning of “reconcile.”

That’s why I wrote this: What does “reconcile” mean?

Sonia

Roofus and Sonia,

I have seen non-universalists go both ways: all means something different, and reconcile means something different. (And the things in heaven being reconciled mean something different than the powers, principalities etc. mentioned a verse or two earlier–but that’s a variation of all not meaning all here.)

I briefly touched on this as an example in my debate with TFan, during my rebuttal period (and I recall maybe once afterward during cross-exam or Q&A): non-universalists cannot consistently make a simple complaint about universalistic tendencies to read eonian two different ways in closely connected context at Matt 25 (for example), because non-universalists as such are absolutely dedicated, whatever the reasons may be (for better or for worse), to doing just the same thing at Rom 5 and Col 1. As in fact most Christians have to do regarding the term “eonian” itself at Hab 2 and Rom 15.

The salient question is whether universalists have good contextual reasons (at any of several levels) for understanding eonian at Matt 25 to mean two significantly different although similar things. And my main argument (not my rebuttal) for Matt 25 involved making a case for exactly that in the narrative and thematic contexts of the judgment.

Those sound like pretty significant problems to me!

I’ll be curious if Chad sufficiently addresses them, although my (perhaps overly quick) first impression is that he does not.

It should be kept in mind that my comments were about Chad’s report on MM’s article and Chad’s first brief attempt at applying the precepts of that article for this purpose. Chad’s actual paper, linked to above, is far more detailed.

Jason,

It’s not accurate to associate this view with Michael Murray. In fact, I have never heard Murray suggest anything like the particular view I develop. I only mentioned Murray because of the affinities the view might have with his “natural consequences” model, where one’s eternal destiny is seen to be a ‘natural consequence’ of the characters one forms in this life. But the connection is not a necessary one by any means.

Thanks, Chad. That was poor composition on my part; I’ve added a parenthesis to try to clarify what I meant.

Edited to add: actually, now that I look all the way back to the first post, I remember that I had misunderstood you originally to mean that you were reporting such an attempt from MM. (This no doubt also explains my poor composition later, as an unconscious after-effect association.) I’ve added a parenthetical correction of my mistake there, and also added links in both places to your corrective post.

By the way, readers should be sure to follow my conversation with Chad in the comments of the original article, which for convenience I’ll relink to here.

The reason I call him “Chris” later in the comments, by the way, is because at the same time I was corresponding with at least one (maybe two) Chris-es, namely Chris Date with whom I was prepping a debate. A neuron misfired and I forgot Chad wasn’t also a Chris. :laughing:

(I wonder if I called Chris “Chad” somewhere at that same time…?)

Hello Jason

Nice exchange. I would like to throw in my 2 cents here…“the last enemy” Paul is referring to is physical death which of course is caused by spiritual death. (a package deal here). This all happens of course after the final judgment in Rev 21. :wink:

I don’t have a problem with the final enemy being physical death, except insofar that since it depends on spiritual death, it cannot actually be the final enemy to be defeated. :wink:

(Unless Christ leaves enemies undefeated, being unable to defeat spiritual death. But that runs rather against the gist of the surrounding passage, and would be no gospel worth proclaiming: that where grace exceeded, sin superexceeded, for not as the grace is the sin!)

I certainly don’t have a problem with physical death being completely defeated, since it would be impossible to have a resurrection without the death of death. Although if spiritual death is not defeated then it will continue to create physical death in the wicked even after the resurrection, and so again there would be no final defeat of physical death either.

I can however say without qualification that I have absolutely no problem with death (spiritual and/or physical as you prefer, although I would say both) being eventually defeated as the final enemy after the judgment in Rev 21! :smiley: And I certainly agree that this is what is being talked about here.

Meanwhile I’m glad you bumped this thread, Aaron, as I’ve been wanting to get back to my discussions with Chad and PaulM (who have since then been discussing the matter without me while waiting for me to catch up).

Ooh i like that. I’ve never quite thought of it that way. Interesting. :slight_smile:

No problem, Jason. When you find the time I would like to discuss your thoughts on how Rev 22:6 is the close of the letter and that anything after that is not meant to be seen chronological, but only to our present situation now on earth. :wink:

Let me clarify: I didn’t say that right. I believe the death to be defeated is physical death. Sin was the doorway for death to enter (spiritual and physical). Spiritual death does not depend on physical death. Spiritual death did not create physical death but both were the result of sin. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Spiritual death means being void of the life or nature of God and separated from Him. (which was caused by sin in Romans 5:12).

Physical death and spiritual death culminate in the “second death” (Revelation 20:14). The second death is an eternal separation experienced by all who are void of the life of God. 2 Thess 1:8-9.

Aaron,

Fairly said!

But leaving aside my comments on 2 Thess 1:8-9, which directly references a portion of Isaiah where sinners defeated by the firey appearance and judgment of YHWH eventually repent and are reconciled back with YHWH and the survivors of YHWH’s advent (who are themselves the righteous and holy ones whose names were written in the book)–which is why I actually volunteered that scripture set as positive scriptural testimony for eventual universal salvation from sin in my October debate with TFan (naturally he took the other side :wink: ) – I note that your account still leaves spiritual death as the final enemy and still undefeated by Christ. Which still doesn’t gell very well with the gist of the eschatological portion of 1 Cor 15.

(It also doesn’t gell very well with the gist of Paul’s scriptural citations in regard to the resurrection at the end of that chapter either, which I have an article about here on the forum somewhere.)

In 2 Timothy 1:10 states that Jesus “**who has abolished death” ** (past tense) and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. Would it be fair to say that the death that has been abolished is spiritual death? Therefore would it not stand to reason that physical death and not spiritual death is the final enemy undefeated by Christ? Which would gell with the gist of the eschatlogical portion of 1 Cor 15 and Rev 20:11-15.

We don’t have control over reversing physical death. That is the last enemy to be defeated. But we do have control whether we want to be separated from God or not. A man without Christ is spiritually dead or separated spiritually from Him. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.) God doesn’t see being separated by spiritual death a problem anymore because Jesus annulled it and broke its power by his completed work on the cross. That was God’s part in the reconciliation. Now we must do our part and receive this reconciliation by faith in this life.

There is provision for mankind to receive this reconciliation by faith in this life by choice. God will honor your choice not to be reconciled to Him through Jesus in this life and to be separated spiritually from him for eternity and throw you into the lake of fire which is the second death or eternal separation from God in Rev 20:11-15.

Paul supports this in 2Thess 1:8-9

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This eternal separation takes place in Rev 20:11-15.

Actually, the verb at 2 Tim 1:10 is an active aorist participle. It’s basically the same tense as “being made manifest” earlier in the same verse, except active instead of passive.

Put another way, the rest of the verse says “yet [He, Jesus Christ] is illuminating life and incorruption through the gospel”. That didn’t happen at some completed and now over time in the past; it happens now and will happen in the future (both our future and the future of Paul which is our present – and our past between now and then!) It’s the same verb tense.

(Although admittedly the tense tends to be translated past tense in English. I’m not sure why, unless it’s a Protestant attempt to avoid any even remote implication that Christ is still doing this in the Eucharist; which the context wouldn’t imply anyway.)

Anyway, the tense doesn’t exclude the same action continuing to happen presently and in the future. It tends to affirm otherwise.

I’d say it’s fair to say that Christ abolished (past tense) physical death in the resurrection (He didn’t have to abolish His own spiritual death, as He never sinned against God); does abolish our spiritual death now and in the future for those who cooperate with His leading to repent, as well as in the past (including upon the cross); and shall abolish both physical and spiritual death in the future (the first in regard to the resurrection of both the good and the evil, and the second in regard to empowering and leading sinners to repentance and reconciliation with God.)

If I denied the abolishment of spiritual death in anyone after the cross, I would be denying the salvation of anyone from sin where sin still reigns in them, including (strictly speaking) even St. Paul, but certainly including anyone after the day of St. Paul (such as you and I!) The completed abolishment must continue (in the classic already/not-yet theme of the scriptures) until it is completed.

I don’t think it makes any sense for any enemy to be undefeated by Christ, and certainly not in the context of 1 Cor 15, which says Christ must reign (after the resurrection and in judgment) until all His enemies are under His feet, with death being the final enemy abolished after all other rulers and authorities and powers. This abolishment or nullification involves subjection to Christ in some fashion that they aren’t already subject to Christ; and also involves a subjection such that Christ can subject them to the Father in harmony with His own subjection to the Father (but not until Christ’s enemies have been subjected in such a way).

Nothing at all in that passage teaches that any enemy is finally undefeated by Christ, not even death (whatever it may mean by death there). On the contrary, there is some kind of subjection to the Father by the Son Himself that cannot be done until all the Son’s enemies have been subjected to the Son (in some fashion that they are not already subjected to the Son). Any enemy remaining undefeated would frustrate that subjection of the Son to the Father.

I would never dare say that any enemy is undefeated by Christ; but to say that physical death (of all things) is the final enemy which remains un-defeated by Christ, in the middle of a passage that teaches at least the physical resurrection (and appears to at least implicitly affirm the resurrection of the evil as well as of the good)?? What kind of triumphant victory of the resurrection is that, where the final undefeated enemy is physical death???

No, physical death makes no rational sense there as being a (much less the) finally undefeated enemy. If there is a finally undefeated enemy being talked about in that passage at all (although there is less than no evidence of any such finally undefeated enemy), it has to be something other than that which the resurrection at the most minimum must defeat in order to have any resurrection at all!

Something else must stand to reason there. The final failure of the resurrection over even merely physical death is no ground for us “to stand steadfast and immovable upon, always super-abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that our toil is not (and shall not be) in vain in the Lord.”

(To which I may add that whatever else Rev 20:11-15 may or may not mean, I defy anyone to claim that it teaches any enemy shall remain finally undefeated, least of all physical death!)

Are you saying you don’t believe Jesus put to an end the dominion of spiritual death or to be separated from God at his completed work on the cross? Are you saying for spiritual death to be abolished one must cooperate with God’s leading to repent…is this correct?

I look at the completed work of the cross to mean Jesus has put to an end what was separating God from man which was reversing spiritual death. And physical death will soon follow at the resurrection. It is a done deal. Spiritual death no longer has power and dominion in this world because it has been reversed. True, to partake of this personally one has to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, but personal repentance is not the requirement for it to be defeated. Jesus defeated spiritual and physical death at his death and resurrection and all we have do is receive it to partake of it. He has made provision for the world to receive this.

True, Jesus never sinned against God but he did become our sin so that we might be made the righteousness of God. 1 Cor 15:19;21. It says Jesus was made to be sin for us…In other words, Jesus literally became sin. How does one who became sin not experience spiritual death?