The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A resurrection contradiction?

I gave an explanation of the whole common-sense comma back up the page…

This thread’s bump has gotten me rethinking the issue. @davo do you think the “paradise” Jesus and the thief went to on Good Friday was sheol?

I couldn’t really say with any authority… we know sheol was the grave so yeah that’s a given they went there, from out of which Jesus was raised. There are certain Greco-Roman interpretations reflected in the NT but whether these are more than the typical understanding of those ancient times is anyone’s guess.

I for one, do. As I said elsewhere:

Again, the idea that Sheol was previously divided into two compartments before “the harrowing of hell” is used in the common interpretation of the story of the rich man and Lazarus:

Luke 16:24, 26
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

I would suggest that all humans are currently in a temporal classroom, in one of three locations. We are each right now either,

  1. here on earth, not yet having died
  2. up in a part of heaven called “Paradise”
  3. down in Hades

We recall Paul was caught UP to Paradise:

2 Cor. 12:3-4
And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

And maybe! Just maybe! We might have zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) - in the near future…who might like, to “tip toe through the tulips”:.

@davo if Jesus took souls out of sheol/paradise during the ascension, who was left to take out of sheol/paradise during the parousia?

All are taken care of. God did indeed believe in us and help us out.

I noticed, Steve, that you didn’t seem to notice my comment above as being “unnatural” and yet I used “today” in precisely the same way—for emphasis, as I believe our Lord to have done…

We don’t know for sure as we’re not actually told. At a guess and that’s all it is I would speculate the possibility that… such as you mention above probably included the thief and the saints of the OC era as part of the then following “first resurrection” which from that time forward, i.e., AD30—70 was occurring as many were being raised up in faith (Jn 5:25); “the rest of the dead” however did not “live again” (Rev 20:5) until what is considered ‘the general resurrection’ (Acts 24:15) occurred, aka AD70, where Christ handed over “the kingdom” to the Father that He might be “all in all” (1Cor 15:28).

Another point that may be relevant to this discussion:

After God raised Jesus from death, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to His Father
(John 20:17). So how could He have been been with the thief in Paradise three days prior?

Could it be that Paradise does not equal being in the Father’s presence?

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Unlikely as it seems, that might be a possibility.

Hmmm though I see your point as obviously different from your meaning, it yet does intrigue me.

Ephesians 4:8 might refer to the Mosaic Law, not the afterlife.

Concerning the thief on the cross it depends where you place the comma, if you insist the thief was in paradise with Christ the day when He died you have to live with the contradictions this understanding creates.

Luke 23:42-43.

42.Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.
43.And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

The thief seems to have understood, that
Christ coming into his kingdom was a future event. “ remember me [when] you come into your kingdom” For me personally, I think the assurance Christ was giving to this dying thief, was in line with the thief’s understanding of a future kingdom. “Assuredly I say to you today/this day, you will be with me in paradise.” Christ gave assurance that very day, about a future day/event, the thief would be present with Christ when he comes into his kingdom.

What did Jesus mean by saying [paradise] ?

To the the best of my knowledge,the word paradise is only used three times in the N/T. And they are as follows :-Luke 23:43, 2 Corinthians 12:34, Rev 2:7.

Out of these three verses, the one that gives us most description on the location of paradise is Paul’s account, at :- 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago, whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows, such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 and I know such a man, whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Via Paul’s description paradise is up into the third heaven. Which is commonly excepted to be that beyond the sky and the sun/ moons/ stars etc …

1st/ heaven = sky Gen 6:7. Sky

2nd/ heaven = Matt 24:29. The sun/moon/and stars etc…

3rd/ heaven = Duet 10:4. The heavens above all heavens. [These examples by no means exhaustive]

Christ at his resurrection, made it clear that he had not yet ascended to his father and God.Jhon 20:17. Therefore I can only understand that Christ never went to paradise the day he died. It would seem he passed into the third heaven a k a paradise/ the heaven above the heavens/ after his resurrection from the dead and not before, Acts 1:9, Hebrews 4:14, 9:24 + Acts 7:55. Therefore I would assume that the dying thief, didn’t go to paradise with Christ that very day and neither did Christ himself go to paradise that very day. Therefore It more than suggests that the thief coming into Christ’s kingdom Was still yet to occur.

Ephesians 4:8 -12

8 Therefore He says “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

I am more inclined to believe these verses don’t have anything to do with Leading believers who are supposedly dead but not really dead [whatever that truly means] from a compartment in the earth [ie] paradise to heaven. The lower parts of the earth :- Strong’s def :- [The lower parts of the earth/ katōteros = inferior locally of Hades]. If this part of scripture is alluding to those alive/ dead people,being taken from Hades into heaven, then it would seem rather strange that King David is still there [after] Christ’s ascension Acts 2:27-29. David is the one still left in his grave/ hades, and Christ is the one ascended to heaven, having triumphed over death and over Satan by reason of God’s resurrecting him from the dead. Like a conqueror Jesus took [captives] from the enemy. These [captives] were men/women who had been in slavery to sin and death. They were now usable to God.

11 and He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

God could now offer these once [captives] of Satan, who were now [captives/ slaves] of Christ doing the will of God/ Ephesians 6:6, to be devoted to the service of God and his Christian congregation through Christ.

Rev 20: 13.

*13 The *sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works

The Hebrew word Sheol and Greek word Hades are synonyms. I believe that this is the place of unconsciousness, Eccl 9:5, Inactivity Eccl 9:10 and silence psalm 115:17. I see soul sleep between death and the resurrection as a biblical presentation were one sleeps in the dust of the earth Until the time of the resurrection. Gen 3:19 and Dan 12:2. I can’t believe that the sea holds departed souls as well as Sheol/ Hades Rev 20:23 ? For me the sea/ Sheol/ Hades, are earthly and watery graves Were one ceases to exist, until the resurrection of the dead, at which point Hades and death will be abolished.

Hi Bowsixtysix
What do you make of Luke 16:23 and its reference to Hades?
Luke 16:23
“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.”

I agree that Jesus was speaking of a future time. There were no commas in the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament (or any other punctuation marks.)

Bible translators have inserted the comma before “today” so that it appears that Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day.

I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

But if the comma is inserted after today, then that meeting in paradise could be in some future time.

I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

When I have mentioned this to people, I have gotten the response, "People don’t talk like that.They don’t say, “I tell you today.” But I’m sure we’ve all heard someone say, “I’m telling you right now…”

Hi pilgrim.

I have given a pretty long winded post on here, referring to Luke 16:19-31. Im sure if you search by typing in “the rich man and Lazarus” your find my thoughts on the subject. In my opinion, there is no justification to refer to this account as a real event at some point in time past. Disembodied souls or spirits, with literal body parts don’t mix.

I think Paul uses similar language at Acts 20:26.

You might consider my post from further up the page.