The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A very personal testimony about the fear of hell...

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#4

Keeping in mind that he said he totally became an atheist, I still agree with you on everything else you wrote, Oxy. :slight_smile:

It isn’t that he didn’t lose his faith–he very obviously did.

It’s that we can be sure that God has not abandoned him, despite how Chris has felt about that over the years.

Or anyway if universalism is true we can be sure God has not abandoned him. If Calvinism is true and if Chris is certainly one of the elect, we can also be sure God has not abandoned him (even if Chris became an atheist). If Arminianism is true, God may or may not have abandoned him already, who knows?–though we can at least be sure that God started out acting to save him.

The scope and persistence of assurance of God’s salvation from sin is what is evangelistically at stake between Calv, Arm and Kath theologies. If universalism (Kath) is true, we can be sure that the good news of salvation from sin applies to Chris, too, and always will. If Calv or Arm theology is true, Chris may be hopelessly lost with no good news of salvation from sin for him.

The question of whether the gospel of God’s salvation from sin practically and persistently applies to Chris, personally, himself–not some hypothetical person over there who may or may not be elected to salvation, or whom God may or may not give up acting to save from sin–is absolutely important. God Himself shed His blood on the cross, to the death, to answer that question.

If Christian universalism is true–if trinitarian theism is true!–I can be sure, and so also reassuring to Chris (even if he cannot believe this yet himself), that what you wrote really does apply to Chris himself, personally. I don’t have to make a hopeful guess about whether He is elected to salvation instead of only suffering a convenient delusion (for the sake of other plans of God which might require such a delusion for the sake of God’s glory and perhaps also for God’s real elect). And I don’t have to make a hopeful guess about whether Chris has said and done and thought enough of the right things to keep God from abandoning him to his sin (and so also to hopeless punishment sooner and later.)

Anything less than the maximum gospel, in other words, is only and horribly less.

Chris, if the Arminian scope is true, then the Calvinistic persistence admirably testified to by Oxy is also true for you, personally. I have total faith in God for your salvation; that your repentance is not worthless, and is not too late for salvation. Those people God is talking about in the Proverb you quoted?–they only care about being saved from the harsh consequences of their sins. They don’t care (yet) about being saved from their sins. That’s why God is laughing at them, rejoicing in their consternation.

But God is also rejoicing because, even in their mere consternation, the first step has been achieved (by God!) in bringing them to truly sorrow for their sins. This is prophecied time and time again in the OT. But God’s laughter toward them is not directed at you, in your penitence and sorrow.

Blessed are those who sorrow; for they shall be comforted by God.

May God strengthen and refresh you at last this weekend, in peace.

#5

Thanks for your encouraging words guys. It’s been quite a trip. It’s a little more than a weird thing to look back at your life and remember a time when all sorts of people told you that you were “special” and “anointed”, and that God was doing “important” things with others through your life. I can say, with the apostle Paul that “I have suffered the loss of all things” and hopefully it is so I can say “and I count them all rubbish that I may gain Christ.” One thing that sometimes gives me some hope was that my greatest apostasy was made when it seemed as if God had washed his hands of me. At that point I had not rejected Him, I only felt rejected by him and was in a back-slidden state. I still prayed and went to church, etc. It was when I became totally despairing that I began to go down the atheist road. I did it to seek comfort from my condemnation and I would talk to God and tell him that I was only doing it because I didn’t know how to cope knowing that I was going to literally burn forever. I hoped that he would understand that I wasn’t hostile toward him. I lived in such a crazy world like that, full of contradictions. There were times that I would say that I was a completely convinced atheist at breakfast time, but by supper time I would be praying about something or trying to reason with God about my position before him. I was always trying to find a way to receive mercy. I remember one day driving off from my house and I was thinking how I was no longer a believer and all of the sudden, right in front of me there was a really bad accident. It was one of those where you know that someone got hurt fairly bad and I immediately began to pray in earnest for the person who was hit. It struck me like a lightning bolt. I somehow had gotten to a place where I was in 2 places at the same time. On the one hand I didn’t believe and on the other hand I was holding a steady stream of conversations with God about my life.

The hope I was talking about at first was that the apostasy came from the assumption of eternal hell. I was trying to protect myself psychologically by finding a reason to not believe in hell anymore. I wonder, perhaps if UR is true, that God will show mercy to me since my fear was based on something that wasn’t true (eternal hell) and as a result would forgive my apostasy that was caused by that belief. It’s an interesting line of thought to consider. Don’t get me wrong, though, I’m not claiming innocence.

Chris

#6

I read every word and even when he became an “atheist” he was still struggling. Bear in mind I am a O.S.A.S. I don’t see in scripture that one can lose their faith as they never had it to begin with. I see in scripture a Christian can sin for a season but the bible doesn’t say how long that season is even Peter walked away but Jesus brought him back. God Bless! :slight_smile:

#7

Chris to be honest eternal hell is mainstream orthodox Christian teaching therefore UR is the apostasy. Chris there are two presuppositions diametrically opposed from one another with different attributes and characters of God. Do not think that UR is just a matter of not believing in eternal hell. UR and mainstream orthodox Christianity are in two different camps and on that basis both can’t be Christian and one is idolatry. Chris could you worship a God that sends people to an eternal hell? because if my presupposition turns out to be true then you do have something to worry about. Please understand I am not here to rain on your parade but I do this out of love because of what I see in scripture. God Bless! :slight_smile:

#8

I totally agree with this. We find the characters in scripture denying, forgetting and doubting God, yet He still claims them as His own. Thomas might as well have been an atheist - he didn’t have a belief in the resurrection as per Romans 10:9! Okay, so he probably still believed there was a God, but how is that any better when you don’t have trust that God can do anything? You practically don’t believe in God.

I’ve found some atheists to be very spiritual. I even feel some fellowship with them. :mrgreen:

Who knows how God is working in the world, and who are we to judge? It is indeed a divine mystery… and I’m on the edge of my seat to see how it turns out! :mrgreen:

#9

Chris
I don’t know where to start. I read almost every post on this forum and reply to a small minority. But I know this, that although I haven’t the guts you have shown to write my story today, I can’t leave this chair without writing something.

  1. THANK YOU! If people (‘christians/churchgoers’) were just half as honest with themselves and others as you are, I am sure this world would be transformed for the better.
  2. As a bible believing christian, regardless of how strong/weak/non-existent your faith is, I know one thing for sure - if you are to be damned, then so am I and so is the rest of the world! It is clear to me that your spiritual journey is light-years ahead of most people.
  3. Here is an observation - it may be wrong: Whilst your faith in God was almost shot to pieces, you still placed IMMENSE faith in what the Bible says. It seems to me that you had more faith in the Bible than in God? Just think about it. You allowed certain texts to scare the living daylights out of you to the extent that you shewed more (negative) faith in your interpretation of some passages from some of 66 collections of writings than you shewed in God. I would respectfully ask you in the coming months to re-assess your perspective of these writings and whether we can idolise the book(s).
  4. I am convinced that those who are truly moving in the right direction become more and more sensitive to their own failings - their own inadequacies. This becomes an unbearable weight if it is not accompanied by a knowledge that got loves us to death JUST AS WE ARE. Perhaps whilst you are begging, God is weeping because you wont let go of those hideous concepts that are making you beg. Perhaps until you do, until you surrendered your stubborn beliefs, His hands were tied. There is all the difference in the world between begging and surrendering.
  5. Whilst I haven’t the guts to share my story I know of two things that have helped me and if any of the above made sense, I will pass them on to you if you wish.

May God bring you the peace that will revolutionise your life and that of your family.

#10

Chris, you are sharing in the suffering of Christ. He also said, “Father, why have you forsaken me?” Your response is also the same. “Into your hands I commit my spirit.”

Nothing, *nothing *can separate you from the love of God. If the writer of Hebrews seems to say otherwise, he either was mistaken, or we are misunderstanding him.

Could he be mistaken? Isn’t this Holy Writ? Well, was the Teacher mistaken when he said “Everything is meaningless”? Or the Psalmist who said it was blessed to bash babies? Or Jesus, when he contradicted Moses. “You have heard it said… but I say to you…” Or Paul, when he called down curses on unbelievers?

I’m told there was a controversy in the early church. If Fred falls away under persecution, can we accept him back into the Church when things cool down, or is that the end of it for apostate Fred? We can clearly see what side the writer of Hebrews took in this debate, but fortunately not everyone saw things his way. His “One chance only” argument didn’t win the day.

#11

Imagine that the Incarnate Son of God is on earth and He says that He will not cast out any that come to Him. You come to Him and He says “I cast you out”. Ain’t gonna happen…

#12

Hey Pilgrim, thanks for being so gracious with me. As far as being “light years ahead”, I can only have hope that “His being strong in my weakness” will give me potential for great strength for I am a weak and foolish man. You said,

“I know of two things that have helped me and if any of the above made sense, I will pass them on to you if you wish.”

I would be glad to hear the things that have helped you.

Chris

#13

Oxy,

You said, "UR and mainstream orthodox Christianity are in two different camps and on that basis both can’t be Christian "

What does it mean to be a Christian? What do you need, bare bones, to get into heaven? You are Phillip and I am the Ethiopian eunich. You have just a few minutes with me before you are snatched away by the Holy Spirit. What do I need to be saved? Just the bare bones–The essentials to get me through?

Chris

#14

Chris,
That’s a very stirring testimony and I thank you for sharing it–and there’s nothing in it to be embarrassed about.

I share your need to be convinced by scripture. I would never have believed in UR if I was unable to see it in scripture, and because I see it there I thank God always for His love, justice, and mercy. I had to work through all those troubling passages which we have been taught to see ET in, and though I’m not necessarily satisfied that I’ve come to full understanding of these, it is enough for me.

The most convincing thing to me is that the scope of salvation portrayed in scripture seems to clearly encompass all of creation. I see no way to get around that fact as being the final result of God’s plan. Surely there is judgment, wrath, condemnation, punishment for sins that cannot be simply forgiven… and then what happens? I don’t think we’ve been told enough to know exactly how it all plays out, but it is stated very plainly that the purpose of the ages is the subjection of all things under Christ and the unifying of all things in Christ.

So I look at the Proverbs passage that troubles you and see that the fools folly will lead to destruction and the sin of the naive will lead to death; there comes a time when in the course of stubborn rebellion when God will punish us and give us the full measure of what we’ve earned, even if we cry for mercy – just as David begged for the life of his son, but God took the child anyway.

… and I ask: And then what happens? For the end has not yet come. Other passages tell us about the end. Scripture tells us of a God who “kills and makes alive” and who “wounds and heals”. He raises the dead, heals the sick, sets free the captives, seeks and saves the ἀπόλλυμι [destroyed].

The Hebrews passage says that it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance” – which is a frightening statement indeed! But isn’t the very fact that you find yourself repentant proof that you have not sinned in the manner described?

The people to whom Hebrews is addressed were returning to Judaism–or at least mixing the two… They put Christ to shame by saying in their actions that His sacrifice was insufficient, feeling that they must go back to the sacrificing of animals, whose blood is unable to save, the offering of which was merely shadows of the true sacrifice to come. The repentance in vs 6 is the same as that of vs 1: “repentance from dead works.” If they once repented from these works, experienced the work of Christ in their lives, found it not good enough for them and went back to trying to find salvation through dead works–how would it be possible to change their minds and bring them back to Christ again? The author of Hebrews says it’s impossible.

But it doesn’t end there! He continues on and assures them that although they have fallen aside into this error and put Christ to shame, and he has spoken harshly because of this, he is convinced of better things from them and for them, to result in salvation–that they are not worthless and fit to be burned (even though they may have produced a crop of thorns!) but they have done good, ministered, loved and God does not forget this. He urges them to continue in these things and in faith in God (rather than in religious rites) so that they may have assurance and hope of salvation.

I hope you will be encouraged and come to the assurance that God loves you much–nothing can separate us from His love!
Sonia

#15

dirtboy,

I’m quite surprised that in the Proverbs 1 passage you inexplicably stopped at vs 32. Did you see what vs 33 says?

“But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.”

Was this intentional?

ETA: I would like to add something here, because I know your plight about doubts of your salvation. It seems that as much as you tried to beg and plead with God for mercy, the less it seems evident to you. I think you are going about it the wrong way.

“Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.” - Luke 17:33

You’re so worried about trying to save your own ass that it has become the very thing you fail to attain (Pardon me, as I speak from experience). As long as you try to seek save your own life, you’ll never find it. You know why? Because you are putting the focus on yourself. It is a source of pride. Negative pride at that.

"Charity ‘agape’ love] suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;" - I Corinthians 13:4-5

This kind of love is sacrificial, regarding not one’s own life, but the lives of others. To be obsessed with your own well being is going to affect those whom you love, you’ve even stated as such by you concern that your doubts could affect how your children will think.

I remember my then 16 year old daughter came to me not too long ago and had doubts about her salvation. I asked her that when she came to Christ did she mean it, she said yes. I asked her if she had a heart for God, she said yes. I asked her are you trying to do what the Lord has spoken on her heart about in folloing Him, she said yes. I asked then why would she doubt her salvation? She said she just didn’t feel saved. I pointed out that God never instructed us to feel saved, but to take it by faith in trusting Him. I asked her if she trusts God to save her. She said yes. After that her doubts subsided.

We need to get to the point that we simply trust Him. It’s only when we get past this that we can live for Him.

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.” - Luke 14:26

This passage is not talking about loathing yourself to death. It does you no good to get all bonkered about whether God is sending you to hell or not. Because you are focused on yourself. That is the whole lesson about denying oneself.

“Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” - Matthew 16:24

If you want the operation of the Spirit to be evident in your life, you are going to have to just follow Christ. Look to do what He’s told you to do and not worry about the outcome. Just “trust and obey” as the hymn goes.

“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” - John 14:21

You will see God in you life, manifested by the obedience you demonstrate to God in loving Him.

I can guarantee you from my own experience, this promise is real.

#16

Quite so! But that was regardless of whether Peter had lost his faith or not, which by the way he clearly had. :slight_smile:

Peter walked away; Jesus went out and brought him back. It wasn’t a question of God ensuring that Peter persisted in his faith; it was a question of whether God persisted in His own faithfulness to be saving Peter (so eventually bringing Peter back to faith. Peter loses faith on the water after answering the call; Jesus keeps His faith and rescues Peter from the swirling chaotic depths. The literal miracle mirrors, and foretells, the spiritual reality.)

And one of the great strengths of Calv theology (compared to Arm), is that there ought to be no question of God’s faithfulness to save. May God be true though every man a liar! :smiley:

Of course, being a Kath means I also believe one of the great strengths of Arm theology is that there ought to be no question of God’s scope to save. May God be true though every man a liar! :smiley:

Calv persistence, Arm scope: the two great hopes of salvation in Christ. And both are utterly practical in preaching the hope of the gospel of salvation from sin and making disciples, in the Name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

(I meant that more for Chris’ sake than yours, but you’re welcome to it, too. :slight_smile: At any rate, I very certainly and greatly appreciate your help in giving hope to Chris. {bow!})

#17

Hi Chris,
I’m glad you opened up and I hope to share a few things that will encourage, even deliver you from the fear that is oppressing you.
1st, note that in the Proverbs passage it is Wisdom speaking, not God! If Wisdom instructs us to go down one path and we choose to follow Folly, then Wisdom will laugh when Folly brings us to ruin. Yes, God is filled with wisdom and wisdom comes from God, but God is much more than wisdom; God is love! And God loves you and love never fails!
2nd, note the metaphor of the land being burned in Heb. 6:8 " But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." I’ve cleared land for farming and ranching. Why is land burned off? To get rid of the plants, weeds, thorns, non-fruit bearing plants, so as to make room for the planting of desired plants and trees! Yes, the passage warns of fiery trouble to come upon those who have rejected God from their lives, but it warns of remedial punishment, whether in this life or the next, NOT ECT! And note that when it says is is “impossible” for them to repent; yes, repentance is impossible for us, especially once we’ve hardened ourselves against God! But what is not possible for us is certainly possible for God! Is anything too hard for God? Of course not.
Just this morning I was studying John 12:32 where Jesus says, "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will **draw **all people to myself.” The word draw is helkyo and means to drag, draw, even by force! It is not a wimpy “drawing” but and active “dragging”. Note the following.

1670 ἑλκύω [helkuo, helko /hel·koo·o/] v. Probably akin to 138; TDNT 2:503; TDNTA 227; GK 1816; Eight occurrences; AV translates as “draw” eight times. 1 to draw, drag off. 2 metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Strong, J. 1996. The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. Woodside Bible Fellowship.: Ontario]

**DRAG **

  1. suro (σύρω, 4951), “to draw, drag, haul,” is used of a net, John 21:8; of violently “dragging” persons along, Acts 8:3, “haling”; 14:19, rv, “dragged,” kjv, “drew”; 17:6 (ditto); Rev. 12:4, kjv, “drew,” rv, “draweth.” See draw, hale.¶
    Note: Cf. the strengthened form katasuro, “to hale,” used in Luke 12:58.¶
  2. **helkuo **(or helko) (ἑλκύω, 1670), “to draw,” differs from suro, as “drawing” does from violent “dragging.” It is used of “drawing” a net, John 21:6, 11 (cf. No. 1, in v. 8), Trench remarks, “At vv. 6 and 11 helko (or helkuo) is used; for there a drawing of the net to a certain point is intended; by the disciples to themselves in the ship, by Peter to himself upon the shore. But at v. 8 helko gives place to suro: for nothing is there intended but the dragging of the net, which had been fastened to the ship, after it through the water” (Syn., Sec.xxi).
    This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify “drawing” by inward power, by divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., Song of Sol. 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.” It is used of a more vigorous action, in John 18:10, of “drawing” a sword; in Acts 16:19; 21:30, of forcibly “drawing” men to or from a place; so in Jas. 2:6, kjv, “draw,” rv, “drag.”
    [Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W. 1996. Vine’s complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words . T. Nelson: Nashville]
I'm sorry for all the inner turmoil that you've went through in your faith, but let me encourage you with a paraphrase of something Bell said in one of his recent interviews, "A living faith is one full of questions!"  If your faith does not have questions, then it's not living, but stagnant and dead.  Far too many people have become calcified in their beliefs and are no longer growing.  Growth requires change. Your faith is like gold and it is and will be refined by fire! 
Well, may the Lord bless you and fill you with peace!

Blessings,
Sherman

#18

A point emphasized by God through Isaiah 27:4-5, by the way, in the midst of severe descriptions of coming destruction on rebels (both Israel and Gentiles). God burns up the thorns and thistles, if people insist on going out to war against Him carrying those, but there is no wrath in Him–the goal is to get them to turn and repent and to cling to Him as their savior, making peace with Him.

(I just posted up a rather long disquisition on the topic, which is connected to St. Paul’s use of Isaiah 25 and Hosea 13 at the triumphant climax of his 1 Cor 15 teaching on the resurrection. It can be found here.)

#19

Thanks, Sonia. I have been encouraged by the messages I am getting from many here on this board. I appreciate your words here.

Chris

#20

Well spoken, dondi! It’s when I found that all I was doing was thinking of myself, all the time, that I realized that I was certainly going to get nowhere fast that way. The reason why I wasn’t able to get out of it was that I was so convinced to the core of my being that God intended for me to go to hell that it completely paralyzed me, emotionally, spiritually, etc. I was a true basket case! It’s embarrassing to admit to all of this, but, there it is. If you look at the last paragraph of my original post, you can see that I was coming to some of the conclusions that you stated here, although your points are more clearly thought out. It took me some time to realize that Proverbs was not God speaking to me and my eternal state. For so long I thought that was a personal message from him. I read a great piece about a man Fritz Spiera, who thought he had blasphemed God. The writer of the article put it this way:

***I would say to Fritz Spiera, “How do you know that you have committed the unpardonable sin?” He would tell me that he once recanted and rejected the Christ whom once he confessed. “Do you feel happy about it?” I would say. “Happy? I’m in agony of soul, without hope.” “No you’re not,” I’d say to him. “This is a day of grace in which Christ invites rebel sinners to come to himself for rest, and he sincerely invites you. Come as you are to Christ and come now. Come as the most reluctant sinner ever to have come. Come with little assurance and little hope that God will hear you, but still come. Die coming! Say, ‘I died trying to come to Christ.’ None who died thus will be turned away.” I would say to him, “You say that you know that you don’t have Christ?” “Yes,” “But do you know that if you did have him you’d be saved?” “Yes . . .” “Then you are a Christian. Do you ask God to forgive you your sins for Christ’s sake? Then that is a Christian.” I would use every means of encouraging him to put his faith - even as fine as a spider’s thread - in Christ. I say, do not trust in your belief that you have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Trust in the one who says, “Come to me.”

Christians get depressed and sick for various reasons, and then they may read these words of Jesus about the unforgivable sin - at such a time of sickness. They cling to those awful warnings and they say, “That is me! I am in that state.” But I refuse to believe them. That is the illness talking. They read Pilgrim’s Progress and they come across Bunyan’s man in the iron cage, and they say, “That’s me.” I will not believe such assurance of damnation. “Don’t say that,” I’ll say to them, “That’s your sickness talking.” This is a day the Lord has made, when we may go to him for mercy and grace to help us in our time of need. However long our imprisoned spirits have lain fast bound in sin and nature’s night Christ’s eye still gives a quickening ray. We can awake, and our chains can fall off, and our hearts be free, and we can follow him.

There is such a thing as an unforgivable sin, and we will not apologise for dealing with a sober theme. Now you know that every wise Christian will say such words as these to you about that sin (and most of you have heard these counsels often through your life) - hear me - that if you are anxious that you have committed blasphemy against the Spirit, you needn’t fear, for such blasphemy is always accompanied by complete indifference to that sin. In other words, if you are afraid you have committed this sin we can say with great confidence that you have not, because the troubled conscience you have is a sure testimony that you haven’t committed it. ***

I am looking forward and with all my might, “forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead. I press on…” I’m throwing myself on the mercies of God.

Chris

#21

Thanks Buddy for your encouragement! You know, it’s a strange thing to be raised up in Christ and being in my position a bit past the half-way point in life. I used to think, when I was young and arrogant, that I was an all right guy and that God was being unfair in His assessment of our natures. Of course I’ve learned a few things since then and can completely understand the prophet Jeremiah when he said that “the hear of man is desperately wicked” But thanks be to God for Jesus Christ our Lord! I would be lost without Him. I was talking to my wife last night and I told her that I have felt, in my spirit, more encouraged than I have been in a long time. I"m setting my sites outside of myself toward some ministry activity. That’s what it’s all about you know, being a light on a hill for all to see. Thank God that His Holy Spirit makes our lamps more attractive than they would otherwise be :laughing: Blessings right back to you, Buddy.

Chris

#22

dirtboy.

Thanks for your open-ness.
<<he will have mercy on me, even though I failed him badly>>

When I fail and fall into sin, I have to remind myself
my salvation doesn’t rely on the quality of my faith but the
quality of my Saviour.

We all fail Christ badly. Don’t care whether you are the apostle Paul
or you or me. We are all failures.

The Christian faith is a faith for failures.

Eph 2:8 and Luke 17:5 may be helpful.

love in Christ Scott

#23

Sorry Chris for the delay in my replying. It will come soon.