Jason says above, about basing their doctrine of future punishments on RevJohn: “Non-Christian Jewish authorities certainly don’t either, from the 1st century rabbis onward!”
But why would non-Christian Jewish authorities base ANY doctrine on a Christian writing?
HUH?
My point was that non-Christian rabbis did NOT need RevJohn to arrive at non-universalism: they believed it was testified to in the same Jewish scriptures Christians also use, which has always been the “majority text” of even Christian Bibles, and which for the first few centuries (until circumstances changed so that congregations could invest in having a ‘full’ set of Christian canon scriptures) was even more overwhelmingly the majority texts of Christian Bibles. (Aside from Gnostics and Marcionites who rejected the OT outright.)
Ran was trying to claim that Christians were universalists until they read and accepted RevJohn, as though RevJohn somehow outweighed everything else Christians might find in the scriptures against universal salvation–which is patently ridiculous in principle and false as to actual history. On the contrary, to the extent that RevJohn looks non-universalistic, any universalistic church authorities would be inclined to reject it for being not of the same theology as the rest of the canon (much as Ran himself does).
For that matter, I have not heard that the main denomination that formally rejects RevJohn (the Syrian Orthodox) are formally universalistic in their doctrine. If they are not, then their whole existence stands as testimony against the notion that RevJohn somehow poisons the milk.
Sorry about that (the non grasping of your point). I don’t have nearly the ability that you have of focusing! Have you always been able to churn out the paragraphs with such ease?
Pretty much. 
I don’t consider that any better than other gifts, though. (I rather tend to consider it supportive to more important things at best.)
I’m looking for both…prooftexting with extension discussion of context.
Jason, you can use as many scripture references that support your answer to my specific question as you desire. Please stop misrepresenting what I asked you to do. My questions were legitimate to your position and all I asked you to do was give me any scripture references that would help you answer the question asked relative to your position…no more…no less. 
Strict terms…This is the answer you should of used to every question without using the “strict terms” accusation. I’m sorry if you view providing scriptural references to answer these questions relative to your position as being “strict” We finally agree, Jason…NOWHERE OF COURSE in the bible does it say this. Jason, has it ever occurred to you that your position is wrong? If you want to continue to believe people are added and found written in the book of life after the FINAL JUDGEMENT in Rev 20:11-15 without one scriptural reference… that is between you and the Lord. I ain’t buying what you are selling without scriptural references, my brother. Of course, you have to hold on to this desperate view or UR goes bye-bye. 
Btw, I can’t beat you on a intellectual level, but I can beat you when it comes down for you to answer my questions relative to your position with scripture. In the end that is all that matters. Show me in The Word of God or be quiet and pray some more. ( this applies to anyone)
Jesus slewed them in Rev 19:21 because they took the mark of the devil and served him. Those who receive the mark of the beast their names are not written in the book of life. Rev 13:8; 17:8. In Rev 20:11-15…these kings of the earth stood in Final Judgement with every man who has ever lived and was not found in the book of life and was cast into the lake of fire. Why? because they received the mark of the beast…(This happens during the tribulation period).In Rev 14:9-11 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
See how simple that was, Jason? Scriptural references with my answers.
In the Lamb’s presence. OK - for how long is Christ present with them? Chapter and verse, please.
If His Holy Fire is remedial then He can expected to be present. If they are truly abandoned, then Christ can’t be there.
I have seen you use the term ‘separated from God’ - perhaps you should stop using that term given the above PRESENCE of God.
No, Ran… Rev 14:9-11 is referring to the wrath of God on earth during the tribulation period in Rev 13:8-19:21. All those who receive the mark of the beast will be tormented on earth during the tribulation and their names will not be found written in the book of life (Rev 13:8 ; 17;8) and will stand in Final Judgement and will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15.
Sorry, Ran, if I confused ya with putting Rev 14:9-11 at the end…I edited the post to clarify myself.
The lake of fire is in God’s presence, that’s what we’re talking about.
I see no reason why the lake of fire shouldn’t be a poetic interpretation for what it must be like for those souls who cannot stand the goodness of God being on the New Earth completely absorbed by the New Heaven. Think about it - the lame and the sick, the “dogs” are right outside the gates of the city. There is endless, infinite, perfect light constantly pouring forth from the Lamb and his saints and the bride, the city herself - and these pitiful souls who have never come to know God have a “hell” of a lot of catching up to do. Their souls are not real enough to take it all in (Lewis touched on this idea with his great book The Great Divorce) and the light burns them like fire and blinds them until they cannot even tell what is going on. It’s the roar of their sin that creates the cacophony of perfect chaos for them.
This demonstrates that the consequences for sin and real and immediate, and tied indefinitely to the sin itself. If the lake of fire is merely earthly, literal fire, then no one would ever learn their lesson or even comprehend God’s justice in it. God’s whole point would be lost on them. They could go on being bitter and self-justified. But if it’s a direct result of their sin coming into direct contact with God’s goodness, then they have no one to blame but themselves.
And before you go off preaching about how the lake of fire is literal, Aaron, why are the same people parked just outside the gates of the city? Hmm? Do you believe that human souls can be in more than one place at once?
Aaron,
Don’t you know the text well enough to make it obvious which bits Jason’s talking about, even it he doesn’t specifically list out each ref and quote for you? I’d think you’d practically have Rev memorized by now. We all know we’re discussing Revelation, and particularly the last few chapters. Maybe you should analyse Jason’s post, and point out where exactly you think his analysis is unscriptural.
Anyhoo, if that’s how you want to play the game, let’s continue from where you leave off and see what happens after the lake of fire:
Rev 21:24, speaking of the New Jerusalem, says: By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. So, there we find the kings of the earth (whom you just described as going into the lake of fire) now entering into the New Jerusalem, which we know is symbolic of the Church, which is called the “Bride” of the Lamb. We know the NJ is the Bride because the angel says in Rev 21:9 “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” and he shows him the NJ descending, as it says in Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. And we know that the Bride is the Church because it says in Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"—for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
Back to Rev 21:24 that is referenced above, and says that the kings of the earth will bring their glory into the NJ, the fact that they will be entering the city, means they will be getting saved, since we becoming part of the Church is the same as getting saved. Note: When I capitalize “Church” I am speaking of the true Church which is the Body of Christ (1Cr 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.)–ie, those who really are saved, and not just making a profession of belief, who will be recognized by Christ (as it says in Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’), and who are also those whose names are recorded in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels).
They (the kings of the earth) have already been through the lake of fire judgment, as you described in your post, because that was described earlier in Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
But now, they are entering the city, as it says in (Rev 21:24 the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it), and this is possible because Rev 21:5 says: And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” So, the kings of the earth are part of “all things” which He is making new. They have been saved by being healed by the tree of life as it says in Rev 22:2 The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And we know that this includes all of God’s creation–including all people and spiritual beings–because it says in Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed. In other words nothing will exist any longer that is ‘accursed’.
The fact that they will be entering the NJ (that is, becoming part of the Church, as I demonstrated above) also means that they will have their names in the Lamb’s Book of Life, because it says in Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Therefore we see that they will be recorded in the Book of Life, or they couldn’t be entering the City. It also means they will become righteous because from that same verse, we also see that they must be cleansed of their ‘unclean’ state before they can enter the city (that is, before they can become part of the Church).
That’s all I have time for right now, so I’ll leave off there. Did I squeeze enough refs in there for you, Aaron??
Anyone else want to pick up? I haven’t covered the “evangelism” taking place, the fact that the salvation is shown as a continuing process, that outside the city there still exists unsaved people, and that those people can probably be said to still be experiencing the “lake of fire” and I don’t know what else. But I know that I and others have discussed all this previously, and I’m starting to feel like a broken record.
By the way, that’s a great post Stellar! I just saw it as I’m posting this.
Sonia
That is why God has a “FINAL JUDGEMENT” in Rev 20:11-15. To judge the works of every man and to see who is written in the book of life or not. Every man’s destiny is sealed and revealed. The people who have their names found written in the book of life enter into the NJ and NE. Those who don’t find their names written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. The gavel comes down and God says" My Ruling is final"
But isn’t it a pity, no one who is still rebelling will agree with God’s judgments. They will still feel as if God is wrong, thus God doesn’t truly conquer over them because they still think that they know better. No victory is complete without proving your enemies wrong.
But if they realize they are proved wrong, and that God is right, and that their sin is wrong, then they have been convicted of the Holy Spirit. And if they have been convicted of the Holy Spirit, this means that they are at the very first step of salvation. And if they are at the very first step of salvation, then this means that there is still hope for them.
God’s judgment is final on sin, not on sinners. Remember, it’s not us who do these things, but sin in us. God would not be just if he ruled that we were ultimately at fault instead of sin. He would be lying. And we know that God is not a liar, but Satan is the father of all lies.
Nice Job, Sonia. I have a few questions to ask about your view:
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Where is it recorded in scripture anyone( including the kings of the earth) repenting and leaving the lake of fire judgement?
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The Rev 21:5 verse is talking about no more pain, no more death, no more sorrow, etc as it was in the earth and the Millennial period prior to the NJ and NE. Rev 21:4 explains verse 5. In other words, All things are new compared how they were before…These things won’t happen in the NJ and NE. Therefore, I believe you are “reaching” for this verse to include the kings of the earth that are in the lake of fire… it does not flow in context with these verses.
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Where does it record the kings of the earth in Rev 19:21 having their names added to the book of life so they can enter the NJ and NE? This is what prevented them to enter in Rev 20:11-15 and 21:27 says only those who are found written in the book of life can enter. This must happen first before they enter… not after… according to scripture.
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Rev 22:2 would be impossible according to your view because anyone ( including the kings of the earth in Rev 19:21) would have to be saved before they enter the NJ and NE…not being saved by the tree afterwards. The standard God set in Rev 20:11-15 to enter the NJ and NE is to be found in the book of life.
God bless,
Aaron
Really? Your other gifts are just as extreme?
Just a question: do you ever find the ability to concentrate wane at times?
Justin, do you notice most of the comments you make are not supported by any scripture? Where in the bible does it say God’s judgment on sin is final, but not with sinners? Where are you coming up this? 
Give me the verse that says that it is final, OK?
Give me the verse that says its not final, OK? Give me the verse where God opens all the books and the book of life again and judges people again for the very things they were judged for in Rev 20:11-15, Ok? There is one judgment for every man and it happens in Rev 20:11-15.
Every knee will bow and tongue confess (the ultimate, irrevocable call of God)…this is especially meaningful for your question since kings don’t normally bow to anyone.
But there they are bowing to and confessing Christ in the lake of fire. If they should burn, then you and I should burn - because confessing Christ and believing Christ (it’s impossible not to believe Him since they can clearly see Him and He is in in their presence) leads to salvation.
Do you see your problem? You have confessing Christians (what else would you call them? repentant sinners?) tormented by the Savior they confess.
Before you reject the rest of the bible for TheRev - something that the Montanists did by their focus - let me remind you that people in the fire are still people and are included in the ‘every’ - no one is excluded from the all-in-all victory. Every sentient being, or made sentient in the resurrection, will confess Christ.
You are on the horns of your own dilemma. You can’t tap dance out of this…
‘…for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.’ Frankly, you can’t stand scripture when it opposes you! You’re enclosed in your little Montanist born-again world and feel safe ignoring the rest of Christianity and, in keeping with that, the rest of scripture. History repeats itself often enough that we can only join with Christ in praying, ‘Father forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing.’
You’re sealing your own doom, Montanist, a heresy then is a heresy now. Which is to say, you’re in grave error, but Christ will fix that. Everything is possible.
No, I don’t.
All of scripture says that God judges the sin and not the sinner. That’s the whole point. Do you really need scriptural references for this? Did you fall asleep in Sunday School?
Once again you display comments without scripture references…Anywho, if you are referring to Rev 22:15 those people are in the lake of fire and are not camped outside the gates of the city. ( being in the lake of fire is not literally outside the gates…)I’m going to start a new topic on Rev 22:15. Where in Revelation are these people literally camped outside the gates of the city, Justin? Where on earth do you come up with this?