The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Another Testimony of someone saved out of "Hell"

That’s much the way I think, Geoffrey. I would never consider denying that people have NDEs. What I question is their interpretation of the NDEs which they have experienced.

It may indeed be that God will meet them where they are. And that after death there is a gradual progression starting within their paradigm as the experience in the afterlife enlightens the soul toward *** the truth and reality of who God is**. From what I see from these NDEs, there is a fundamental change in the individual experiencing it, a change in attitude in a mostly positive direction that seems to give their life a much better outlook and purpose than was evident before, regardless of religious affiliation. Indeed, the NDE has inspired them to be better Buddhists, better Muslims, Better Hindus, etc. For sure, most are convinced there is some reality after death, and that alone is sufficient to cause a greater sense of hope.

Yes, these accounts are problematic if one adheres to the traditional view of Christianity, and may just as well dismiss them for lack of basis in biblical reality. But fore us that hold to a Greater Hope, there is far more latitude in giving these accounts the benefit of the doubt, if only because we believe that God truly loves those in different religions as well. Not to discount Christ redeeming work on the Cross, but my gut feeling is that the application of the Blood of Christ is in work in the lives of people who we normally wouldn’t think were “in the fold”. “Other sheep” perhaps?

*** NOTE: Indeed, even us Christians may be in for a few surprises of who God really is. :open_mouth: **

That’s one of the things that is interesting about these. There always seems to be at least some deviation from orthodoxy at some point for almost every account I’ve read. In many cases, there are wild deviations from orthodoxy! The other interesting thing is that many people get disabused of some notions they had prior to the experience, whether orthodox or otherwise.

If Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, why can he not disguise himself as the young grandfather of the little boy who supposedly went to heaven, or his long-gone sister whom he’d never heard of previously?

First of all, he did not really die. Perhaps the death process began when his heart stopped or whatever happened on the operating table - but he was not cold in the morgue with rigor motis dead.

People who are under a lot of stress, say in a situation where they think they are going to die, but are fine physically, they will have visions or NDE experiences. Fighter pilots whose blood leaves their brains under G-force will have these types of experiences (Richard Arbanes, “Journey into the Light”).

Concerning the video, he was stressed out, thinking he may be dying, and he was drugged, nevertheless, something happened that caused him to know Jesus is real so I count my blessings that we have a new brother in the Lord. If we were in conversation with him, we could ask questions that would reveal if there were a deception at work here in spite of the good fruit it bore.

“Love believes all things”, yet, we are to “test all things” as well.

I agree with Paidion’s statement, “in some cases, demons may have a hand in it in an attempt to deceive people into believing that the Resurrection is unnecessary.”

Before I came to the Lord, I had different experiences with the supernatural, so it was not a ‘stretch’ to believe God could change my heart and indwell me by His spirit.

Good statement, Geoff: “The only perfect and complete revelation of God is in the incarnation of God the Son in Jesus Christ. All else (including all NDEs) is imperfect and incomplete.”

The problem with discounting all NDE’s (I am agnostic towards them) is that in order to be intellectually honest, we must also essentially lump everyone person the Bible who had a vision, dream, etc… Surely everyone can see the blatant double standard that can exist with these things? I’ll be real here.

My Father was ‘slain in the spirit’ or so he says (I believe him). When he tells some Christians of this type of conversion event, some mock, some question him and some say Praise God (all three responses from the same room of people in Church). Whether or not being slain in the spirit is of God, the fruits of it were this: My Father changed his life around. My mother said he started to change from that day forward. He isn’t the same person she married. Now, you can tell my Dad it wasn’t real, or wasn’t of God, but you would have a difficult time answering how he changed his life around and if this was of ‘Satan’ as many suggest, then Satan sure messed that one up, because he turned to God. Whether it was real or not, I have no clue. I just believe that he had that experience and it changed his life. If we call it biological, then we must be prepared to do the same for all the Biblical writers as well, including Paul.

Two thoughts here: Regarding the first; I think we may be reading the satan disguised as an angel of light thing too literally. What if all that scriptural statement means is that the adversary can bring messages that look true but aren’t? After all “angel” means message/ messenger in the original language, so it doesn’t have to be a person or being. Similarly, adversary “satan” is a role, not a title. So I don’t think we necessarily have an evil being masquerading as a person in that verse.

Secondly; I don’t think one would necessarily have to disbelieve in a resurrection due to this. The question becomes about what the nature of the resurrection is and when it occurs. It may be possible that the resurrection is instantaneous for each individual. I don’t necessarily think that’s what’s happening in these cases though. As I’ve said before, I liken these to visions in altered states of consciousness rather than actual after death experiences.