Oh Cole, please don’t think I’m trying to one-up you in the “who’s right and who’s wrong” game. I think you’re wrong, but I have no real interest in trying to convince you that you’re wrong. Even if I did succeed, you’d just change your opinion with the next teacher you listened to. It isn’t that important that we agree on this. I don’t expect you to agree with me on everything, though I sometimes point out that I disagree with you on this or that. Please afford me the same courtesy. You aren’t going to convince me. Maybe one of our members with a good understanding of the original languages could convince me, but you cannot – nor do I expect to convince you.
I’m sure Jason could convince you because you are both trying to justify universalism and you just about consider what he says to be law. You won’t believe my Greek scholars because you think there is a Calvinist - Augustine conspiracy going on. You only listen and agree with those who confirm what you already want to believe.
I have to reiterate Michael that in 1Tim 6:10 the translational imposition of our English word “kinds” [which [i]in English can be legitimate] is due simply and solely to the Greek plural of “evils” and is NO nobble on “all”. So… WHEN you say “The Greek allows for “all” to be translated as “all kinds of”” this is simply incorrect – it is the ENGLISH translation that allows this, NOT the Greek text.
Here’s a few more passages where “all” is translated as “all kinds of”
This seems to be the likely context in 1 Timothy 2 because at the beginning of the Chapter it lists kinds of people:
As can be seen from the expression (for kings and all who are in authority) this doesn’t mean every human being but rather all types of people, whatever their station is in life.
Hi Michael
I’m sorry to rain on your parade, but I’m afraid your logic is faulty, your proof-texting selectively biased, and your exegesis of the first few verses of 1 Timothy 2 dubious to say the least. As Cindy pointed out, you can’t simply look up a Greek word in a lexicon, see that it has a number of nuanced meanings, and conclude that any or all of those meanings are equally appropriate in any given text. It is true that the Greek word translated as ‘all’ in 1 Timothy 2:4 can mean both ‘all’ and ‘all kinds of’ (as well as a lot of other English words or phrases). But this does not mean you can pick and choose between them to suit your theological bias.
Why do you think that every major, reputable translation translates this verse ‘all’, not ‘all kinds of’?
NIV: “who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”.
YLT: “who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth”.
RSV: “who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”.
Wycliffe Bible: “that will that all men be made safe, and that they come to the knowing of truth.”
ASV: “who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth”.
Here’s the clincher:
KJV: “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”.
Even the King James Bible, so beloved of many Calvinists, doesn’t go with ‘all kinds of men’ - even though that translation would serve its theological standpoint far better. No, the reason neither the KJV nor any of the other versions goes with ‘all kinds of men’ is because it is not a valid translation. So far from proving Cindy wrong - and ungraciously dismissing her as biased in the process - you have only proved your own lack of understanding.
Further, the natural sense of the first verse of 1 Timothy 2 is that Paul starts off by exhorting prayers for *all *people - for everyone. True, he then goes on to mention two specific categories of people - Kings and those in authority. But this isn’t the start of a list of ‘all kinds of people’, which is what you’re implying. Paul explains why we should pray for these two very specific groups - “that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty” (KJV). In other words, we should pray for everyone, and specifically for those who rule over us - the implication being because they have the power to hinder religious freedom.
Consider also the context provided by the previous chapter. The main thrust of Paul’s letter is to encourage Timothy to speak out against false teachers. In that context the exhortation to pray for ‘all kinds of people’ makes no sense at all.
This is not a personal attack on you, Michael. You’re a lovely bloke, and I like you very much. You speak with such honesty, including about your own struggles, which is a very rare quality. But you seem to change your views every time the wind blows 
. Yes, there is much to be disputed in various Bible translations. But this just isn’t the debate to nail your colours to the mast on.
You take care, mate, and have a Happy and Peaceful 2014.
Cheers
Johnny
Johnny,
We will have to agree to disagree. Also, I’ve been going through a process of change in discussing the different views on issues of Christianity. I have also been attending a Catholic Church for the past year. The pieces are coming together as I think I am going Catholic. Here’s a few reasons why:
Aquinas was right about atonement
The Catholic church allows one to hold to the views on predestination as taught by St. Thomas Aquinas. God predestines some but passively allows the reprobate to perish because of their sin and rejection of Him.
The Catholic church is about as close to the original church as you can get.
Their views on purgatory are correct.
Their views on communion are correct
Their answer to the question of those who haven’t heard is satisfying
The Catholic church I go to has loving people and great homilies
I enjoy the Catholic mystics including St. Thomas Aquinas
Hi Michael
Hey, no problem. I wish you all the best wherever your faith journey takes you. As I said on another thread, two of the best people I know are Roman Catholics, so there must be a lot of good in that church. I suspect you’ll keep finding yourself coming back here for some Universalist spiritual nourishment, though 
.
All the best
Johnny
Dave both the YLT and the CLV translations of I Tim. 6:10 which you posted are excellent. Personally, I would favour the CLV, with this one change.
Instead of “test themselves”, read “pierce themselves”.
Paidion, I was going to say good ‘point’ but that would sound like a pun on “pierce” so I won’t. 
But yes, the word ‘pierce’ is very descriptive - I’ve found that much sin is also existentially ‘felt’ that way. Don’t ask me how 
Thanks
Michael… the operative word you’ve used here is “translated” – “all kinds of” in the translations given can otherwise be rendered “everyone”, which in fact some translations do.
But all this aside, Paul was NO novice with language… had he intended verses the likes of 1Tim 4:10 to read with a marshmallow “all kinds of” as per Calvin’s aberrant twist then Paul would have used the specific word γένη genē i.e., “kinds” as per…
We can all have our moments of misinformed ignorance, stubbornness however is a choice.