The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Are URist going to Hell? Part 2

Thanks for the response, but I’m still interested in your thoughts about the Scriptural comments I made.

With all due respect Chris I believe it is you who doesn’t understand the magniture of how deeply this goes “evangelical” and “universalist” cannot go together. We both cannot be evangelical. Infact I was having this same discussion with a friend who doesn’t believe in a 6 day creation like scripture actually indicates. I told him if he didn’t believe in 6 days of creation which scripture loudly and boldly claims then he is putting man’s authority over God’s authority and to believe in an old earth would do violence to every other text from sin to repentance because you would be rejecting Genesis “the foundation” which directly or indirectly ties into every book of the bible. Take away the foundation and the bible cannot stand therefore under no circumstance should he consider himself an “evangelical” or vice versa. (Please note: I said, evangelical and not Christian)

You think this is about two presuppositions dealing with existence of a hell or even an eternal hell but like unaware old earth creationists it goes alot deeper. Instead of doctrinal differences with old earth creationists it is the charcter and nature of God with universalists. God Bless! :slight_smile:

I thought I did answer you. The same can be said of your interpretation of scripture as no where does it state the opposite. It is your presupposition that drives you to interpret scripture in that manner. God Bless! :slight_smile:

I have seen nothing in scripture to indicate unbelievers wanting God. The bible says, all men are at enmity with God

Again I see nothing scripture where unbelievers would or even want to repent as in the rich man and lazarus. Not once did the rich man repent infact he was still full of pride telling Abraham to send Lazarus as if Lazarus was still some lowly beggar.

If reconcile means the way you think then why would He need iron scepter?

The bible is clear. The atonement is only for those that believe. Saying that all will believe is not in scripture either. That’s a presupposition

as long as that sinner receives the blood of Christ. God bless! :slight_smile:

And then it says all will worship God (Is 45:22-24, Romans 14:11, Phil 2:9-11; cf 1 Cor 12:3). So, all men being at enmity with God right now does NOT imply they will continue in that enmity for eternity. Especially when the Bible specifically says all people will worship God.

First of all, you fail to address my statement. Second, you’re trying to pull literal truth from a parable that isn’t even about the afterlife. Third, as for the Bible describing where unbelievers want to repent in the future, see the verses I mention above. No one can confess Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit, and eventually all men will confess Jesus as Lord.

Does he always have the iron scepter? Please support your claim that God is eternally beating some people with “an iron scepter.” Besides, “reconcile” clearly means “not holding men’s sins against them.” 2 Cor 5:16-19.

As I mentioned in a previous post, you’re relying on your presupposition that conditions = restrictions. I already stated three passages that clearly state that all will believe.

Which is for everyone, and everyone will receive it. Grace and peace!

Incidentally (or not, rather :wink: ), the iron rod isn’t a scepter. It’s the tool used by a shepherd for disciplining sheep, and the 23rd Psalm describes it as a comfort, while also (very oddly to modern ears) rejoicing that God’s goodness and mercy shall over-run us like a king pursuing a fleeing army to throw it down and bring it back under tribute to him.

Thus in RevJohn 19, when Christ returns to wage war “unto fair-togetherness” (as the Greek puts it), the Greek term for what Christ is doing to the final rebel kings is “shepherding” them with the rod of iron. The scene is an unexpected application of the 23rd Psalm. But this is often obscured in English translations by using softer versions of the relevant words (in the Psalm) and a word that doesn’t look nearly so hopeful in RevJohn (something like “ruling” instead of what it actually reads “shepherding”.)

And that isn’t the last we see of the kings of the earth in RevJohn, either; we also get to see them after the resurrection of the evil and the good. Where the shepherding by Christ is shown being fulfilled in its hope, not in hopelessness.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus will save you from hell.

It DOES say that Jesus “shall save His people from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)