BAPTISM, THE SEAL OF SALVATION


#10

So Chad, I might be a bit confused myself in that you’ve quoted my entire post and then asked this above and so I’m a little uncertain of your train of thought in asking this based off what I shared?? Anyway… I don’t have any particular revelational insight as to this other than to assume God’s spirit is always active, albeit operative according to particular historical settlings and as such, what God was working on behalf of humanity then being now complete, probably looks somewhat different as per the biblical narrative when redemption/reconciliation was being secured.

Not sure IF I’ve answered your question properly. :open_mouth:


#11

davo said

Let me try to explain. you said

So in my disturbed thought process I was thinking of:
Act 8:14 The apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had received the word of God, so they sent Peter and John to them.
Act 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for the believers that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:18 Simon saw that the Spirit had been given to the believers when the apostles placed their hands on them.

and:
Act 10:45 The Jewish believers who had come from Joppa with Peter were amazed that God had poured out his gift of the Holy Spirit on the Gentiles also.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speaking in strange tongues and praising God’s greatness. Peter spoke up:
Act 10:47 “These people have received the Holy Spirit, just as we also did. Can anyone, then, stop them from being baptized with water?”

Also:
Act 19:1 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the province and arrived in Ephesus. There he found some disciples
Act 19:2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” “We have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit,” they answered.
Act 19:3 “Well, then, what kind of baptism did you receive?” Paul asked. “The baptism of John,” they answered.
Act 19:4 Paul said, “The baptism of John was for those who turned from their sins; and he told the people of Israel to believe in the one who was coming after him—that is, in Jesus.”
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 Paul placed his hands on them, and the Holy Spirit came upon them; they spoke in strange tongues and also proclaimed God’s message.
Act 19:7 They were about twelve men in all.

All this to say that the holy spirit seems (at least to me) to be the key to service and during the time of acts it was plain that someone* receiving *said spirit was changed. Obviously as in others could see them changed. We also are led to believe that in at least one instance, until an apostle intervened, some were ‘believers’ and yet had not received the holy spirit.

I’ll re ask, Can you give your take on the ‘holy spirit’ as it was in a historical sense compared to the ‘holy spirit’ in todays context… If it even exists :open_mouth:


#12

Ok Chad now I see what you’re asking :smiley:

As I understand it… the Spirit has always been present, no more no less. The presence thereof however in the biblical context more evident at times than others, and usually for a purpose relative to the furthering of the will of God in relation to the fullness of Israel’s redemption. But just because redemption is complete it doesn’t therefore compute that the Spirit has since been on holidays, but rather to say He maintains that which has been put into order.

Interestingly and I agree, the Rev David Pawson notes that in a number of places in the Greek text of Acts there is no definite article preceding “holy spirit”: this he says denotes specifically the power of the Spirit NOT the person of the Spirit, as seen here…

Subsequently being prayed for was there then evidenced certain gifts of the Spirit’s presence, i.e., power, etc.


#13

Davo said

And I tend to agree with this, thus you go on to say

And you go on to say that

So just as one person asking another, do you think that those praying (obvious we are talking apostles close to Christ) were in in a different place within Gods will (or maybe not) than those who pray today for whatever they prey for in respect to the holy spirit?

I’m not trying to put you on the spot, I just think that this is very interesting and I appreciate your take on it. Plain and simple.


#14

Yep no “on the spot” for me, all good. :slight_smile:

I do think the times were clearly different and reason for “the gifts” per sé different in their intended end, i.e., for the perfecting of the saints unto unity in the faith as per for the coming parousia, BUT that said, since that time I don’t see the maintenance of said unity for the offspring of the firstfruits church as diminished in importance.


#15

Thanks :smiley:


#16

Okay… so I am working on this and I will attempt to do some of it in public via this forum. :smiley:

So davo you said:

Not knowing Greek, and I do not want to start a hornets nest here, but what is the difference between the ‘power’ and the’ person’ of the holy spirit? :confused:


#17

Well, here are a few answers I’ve found - for discussion:

First What is the power of the Holy Spirit?, by the Calvinist site Got Questions at gotquestions.org/power-Holy-Spirit.html

Then Got Questions has Is the Holy Spirit a person? at gotquestions.org/Holy-Spirit-person.html
Next, there is this answer from he Holy Spirit - A Person or Power? by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D., 1991 at askelm.com/doctrine/d910201.htm


#18

I appreciate the links, but Randy what I want to know is *your *view. EDIT what I actually wanted to know was your view and David’s view.
Thanks :smiley:


#19

My view would be very Orthodox, Chad. What you would find the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholics, Franciscans and folks like C.S. Lewis - stating. It’s probably not TOO far removed, from the Got Questions, Calvinist answers.

Just remember - I’m W.A.S.B.O. (i.e. Weird and strange - but Orthodox). :laughing:

Let me share a reflection today - from a Catholic site:

I also came across an interesting discussion on Quora today:

If God loves us, why does Hell exist?

And speaking of Got Questions. I came across this today:

Should a Christian study philosophy?

Let me quote a bit:


#20

I believe the word of God( the gospel that Jesus taught) was proclaimed from the very beginning, when man was first created. As per Luke 3:38, Adam was a Son of God. One may be a child of God, but a Son of God is one who knows and follows the Father. As it says in Genesis, Adam and Eve disobeyed God. However, Genesis 3:21 tells us that God gave them new clothes, indicating that they were forgiven and renewed. They were also given power over the seed of the serpent in Genesis 3:15. As the story goes on, we are told the Abel was righteous. I don’t see how this was possible unless he knew God and was following the way.


#21

This question seems odd to me. Perhaps I don’t understand it. Are you suggesting that the power and the person are the same thing? Is Randy, a person, the same thing as Randy’s power? Say, his power to lift a rock?


#22

“A Christian believes that all necessary questions pertaining to life can be answered by the Bible.” -GotQuestions

Can you say 'gobbledegook"? :smiley:

“A” Christian - does that statement mean “All” Christians? Is it necessary to salvation to believe this?
“Necessary” - who decides what is necessary?
“Life” - biological, social, mechanical, etc etc - what life is the author talking about?

A little sloppy for someone who is launching into a spiel putting philosophy in its place, even if the comments are positive. Condescending, even.


#23

I would ask,is trying to equate Randy’s person or power as being the same as God’s Holy Spirit might be out of context? :open_mouth:


#24

I think the writer of this sentence thinks that this is a general Christian belief—just as one might say, “A criminal believes that he can get away with theft.” I don’t think the writer would say that believing this is necessary to salvation. I have encountered people who make such statements. These ideas arise from the concept of regarding the Bible as God’s word, and which therefore contains all the information necessary in order to live a fulfilling life.

Possibly, he thinks “necessary questions” are those that need answers in order to live a fulfilling life. Questions that are asked out of mere curiosity, would not be considered necessary.

I don’t think he has in mind those specific facets of life, but just life in general by which one can live to the full by being under the authority of God as revealed in the Bible.

In my opinion, the Bible takes the place of God in this writer’s life. I call this position “Bibliolatry.” But I may well be mistaken about this particular individual. Perhaps he simply uses the Bible as his guide in all elements of life, believing that it is the only source of knowing what God says and wants from us.


#25

I don’t think I tried to make that equivalence in any way. Rather I made an analogy:

If Randy’s person differs from his power, then why wouldn’t the Holy Spirit’s person differ from the Holy Spirit’s power?


#26

I would ask, How is Randy different than the Holy spirit?


#27

Randy is simply a Holy Fool. The Holy Spirit is MUCH, MUCH MORE :exclamation: :laughing:


#28

Another odd question! Substitute “Chad” for “Randy.” Aren’t you different from the Holy Spirit?

I have never before encountered anyone who regards any human as BEING the Holy Spirit.


#29

Well, how does the holy spirit work with people? Does the HS guide? Does the HS Chastise? Does the HS wait for post mortem time? Does the HS LOVE?

:smiley: