The way I have come to view this statement is that it seems similar to Paul’s instructions to “judge yourselves and you will not be judged.”
To have peace one with another they would have had to judge themselves…lay down their lives…prefer one over the other, treat each other as they want to be treated…to do these things means they would have to judge/purify themselves. If God is in us then we should have this “fire/salt” in us. I believe it is possible for us to live in peace with each other as well as offer light to those in darkness when we do this.
Jason, just a parenthetical note on A.E. Knoch for you.
Knoch was indeed not a universalist when he began his work on the Concordant literal translation of the scripture, but became one during the course of the tranlsation work(!), when he realized the implications of our mistranslation of (particularly) aion and its derivatives from the original language.
So you were sort of right both when you said he wasn’t a universalist, then said he was…
Where did Jesus say that those who aren’t born again (I assume you mean before they die) will “see the kingdom of Satan?” And where are we told that “the kingdom of Satan” is “hell?”
Aaron.
If you are not born again or born from above you will not see the kingdom of Heaven. So, if you don’t see the kingdom of Heaven there is only one other place you will see, Hell. John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son WILL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM.”
Aaron’ s point proven? The kingdom of Satan was a figure of speech of where people go if they do not get born again. If you are not born again or born from above you will not see the kingdom of Heaven. So, if you don’t see the kingdom of Heaven there is only one other place you will see, Hell. John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son WILL NOT SEE LIFE, BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES ON HIM.”
I fully agree that the wrath of God abides on all who do not obey the Son, and that no one can see the kingdom of heaven until they are born again. What you need to show in order to make a case against universal salvation is that those who do not enter the kingdom of God before they die will never enter it, and that some will never obey the Son and thus see life. But this you cannot do. Scripture teaches that, at a yet future time, all sinners will be made righteous, subjected to Christ and reconciled to God (Rom 5:15-19; 8:19-21; 11:25-26-36; 1 Cor 15:20-28, 42-57; Eph 1:7-10; Phil 2:9-10; 3:21; Col 1:15-20; 1 Tim 2:1-7; 4:10; 2 Tim 1:8-10; etc.).
A couple of questions for you:
Where in all of Scripture do you find the doctrine of endless, post-mortem suffering (“hell”) first revealed by God to man?
2)Where in all of Scripture do you find it taught that God has conditioned our endless, post-mortem destiny on something we do or don’t do before we die?
Do you think people who have not been born again before they die go to this “kingdom of Satan” after they die? If so, where is this revealed in Scripture?
Aaron.
I’m enjoying are conversations. I think you have to prove people coming to faith after they die in their sins an unbeliever. This is the doctrine you are believing and trying to defend. Nowhere in those scriptures does it teach coming to faith after you die in your sins.
The sons of Korah were swallowed up by the earth and where do you think they went Aaron? Deuteronomy 32:2 : “For a fire is kindled in My anger, And BURNS TO THE LOWEST PART OF SHEOL, AND CONSUMES THE EARTH WITH ITS YIELD, AND SETS ON FIRE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE MOUNTAINS.”
Hebrews 10:26 " For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins." Verse 29 "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
2 Thess 1:8-9 " 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
God is love. We love Him because he first loved us. But he is also Holy and Just. He gives man a choice to have a relationship with Him through his Son Jesus Christ. ( Romans 5:8) God demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Christianity is a family, not a religion. You must be born into the family ( John 3:3)…you can’t just join it like some religious social club. You enter by grace through your faith and no one else’s.( Galatians 3:26) God has done his part. Man has to do his part by exercising his faith in Jesus’s death, burial and resurrection.
BA,
In your understanding of theology, do you separate God’s love from his holiness and justice? Or to put it another way, does God exercise justice apart from his love, or does he act in love apart from his holiness, etc?
Once again, please show me chapter and verse where we’re taught that people must come to faith before they die in order to avoid a state of endless suffering after they die. Also, you seem to think that God is either unable or unwilling to save from sin and unbelief those who have already died. But why do you think this? Where do you find this idea taught in Scripture?
No need to yell, there. Now, the language in Deut 32:2 is so obviously figurative that I’m surprised you even provided it as a proof-text for “hell.” When we look at Deut 32:2 in a larger context, we see that God is talking about a national judgment, and not post-mortem punishment. Deut 32:21-25 reads, “They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs.”
That God is not talking about post-mortem punishment here is evident from the fact that this judgment involves “disasters,” “arrows,” “hunger,” “plague,” “poisonous pestilence,” “the teeth of beasts,” “the venom of things that crawl in the dust,” “the sword,” etc. This is all language describing a national judgment against a generation of unfaithful Israelites (cf. vv. 20-21, 41-42), and not anyone’s post-mortem fate. The “fire” is not literal, but figurative; it’s an emblem of temporal judgment. Moses is not writing about a literal fire that was literally going to “consume the earth” or set “the foundations of the mountains” on fire.
As for Korah and his company, they are dead and will remain dead until the resurrection of the dead, at which point they will be made alive in Christ to be with their Saviour (remember, God is “the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”). Until they are made alive in Christ, they are in the state of the dead, where there is no conscious existence (Eccl 9:5, 10). Now, these verses state very clearly that “the dead know nothing” and that there is “no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol.” If this is so, then the “fire” of God’s anger which is said to burn to “the lowest depths of Sheol,” even if taken literally, cannot be tormenting them, can it? I hope it is evident to you that dead people are not aware of anything, and can’t feel anything; if this isn’t evident to you, then I encourage you to attend a funeral sometime.
There is nothing in the above passage that indicates the author is talking about a post-mortem punishment for anyone. The judgment to which the people in this passage exposed themselves by their wilful sins is just as temporal (and thus limited) as the one spoken of in Deut 32.
Regarding Paul’s words in 2 Thess 1:8-9, my view is expressed here: 2 Thess 1:5-10
Hey Sonia.
God has many characteristics of who He is. Love is who God is at His core. God is love. God is Holy. God is just. Remember it was Adam who rebelled against God and sinned against Him and was forced out of the Garden of Eden. God loved the world so much that he planned redemption for all mankind through Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation. He has given man a choice to have a relationship with Him through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Man can receive Jesus by faith and be reconciled back to God or you can reject Jesus and pay the penalty of your own sins which is the second death, the lake of fire.( Rev 20:11-15).
This is repeated over and over throughout the Gospel.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.** 1 Corinthians 5:11-15**
We have freedom of will to make the choice, live for the Lord or live for ourselves. We live for the Lord, die to ourselves now, or we live for ourselves and die to ourselves later. One has reward, the other one suffers loss.
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up,* he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. * 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.Hebrews 6:7-9
So here is the scenario:
Jesus Christ died for ALL, therefore ALL are considered dead in Him.
Therefore there is only ONE foundation and it is Jesus Christ.
All mankind, both believers and non-believers, are building on this ONE foundation whether they know it or not.
Those who understand the foundation they are building on will build rightly and receive their reward, those who do not understand the foundation they are building on will build poorly and suffer loss as it is burned away but they themselves are saved but as one who escaped through fire.
In the end all will be saved, though many will suffer loss; but those who believe receive a reward.
1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.
judgment
a) condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others
b) in a forensic sense
the sentence of a judge
the punishment with which one is sentenced
3)condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence
a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court
It is mistranslated sometimes as “damnation” or “condemnation” by translators of Scripture into English, the word ‘KRIMA’ simply means judgment of what is.
Example of KRIMA: There are two holes one a round and one a square. You have one round peg. It is KRIMA to decide where this peg rightly fits and KRIMA to decide where it does not. We observe round pegs fit in round holes.
It is the absolute conclusion of what something was or is.
Which is why, as you rightly point out:
Good Stuff Jeff!
KRISIS = JUDGMENT OF SEPERATION
a separating, sundering, separation
a) a trial, contest
selection
judgment
a) opinion or decision given concerning anything
esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment
the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
right, justice
It is mistranslated sometimes as “sin” “damnation” in by translators of Scripture into English, the word ‘KRISIS’ simply means judgment of separation.
So where as KRIMA tells us what is what, KRISIS is seperation of that which we want and do not want.
Example of KRISIS: There are two holes one a round and one a square. You have one round peg. It is KRIMA to decide where this peg rightly fits and KRIMA to decide where it does not. We observe round pegs fit in round holes. It is KRISIS to insert the round peg into the round hole and not the square one.
Translators of Scripture into English mistranslate it sometimes as “Damnation”, the word ‘KOLASIS’ simply means corrective punishment, also called correction.
Example of KOLASIS: There are two holes one a round and one a square. You have one round peg. It is KRIMA to decide where this peg rightly fits and KRIMA to decide where it does not. We observe round pegs fit in round holes. It is KRISIS to insert the round peg into the round hole and not the square one. It is KOLASIS to be frustrated and told we were wrong every time we ignore KRIMA and KRISIS and continue to jam a round peg into a square hole, it is KOLASIS to be alleviated when the round peg fits into the round hole and praised for the correct answer.
Now, the language in Deut 32:2 is so obviously figurative that I’m surprised you even provided it as a proof-text for “hell.” When we look at Deut 32:2 in a larger context, we see that God is talking about a national judgment, and not post-mortem punishment. Deut 32:21-25 reads, “They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs.”