But again I say that Paul says that even your faith is not of yourself it is the gift orf God - lest any man should boast.
Are you claiming that by your own faith you have obtained God’s grace?
Sonia,
Good question for BA.
It is interesting how mainstream Christianity has lost focus that God’s Holiness and Justice is not separate from His Love but out of His Love.
Zechariah 7:9
"This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Administer true justice, show mercy and compassion to one another.”
1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.
Why is it so difficult for them to recognize the standard in which Holy and Just derives it’s median, is Love.
Once again, please show me chapter and verse where we’re taught that people must come to faith before they die in order to avoid a state of endless suffering after they die. Also, you seem to think that God is either unable or unwilling to save from sin and unbelief those who have already died. But why do you think this? Where do you find this idea taught in Scripture?
No need to yell, there. 
Now, the language in Deut 32:2 is so obviously figurative that I’m surprised you even provided it as a proof-text for “hell.” When we look at Deut 32:2 in a larger context, we see that God is talking about a national judgment, and not post-mortem punishment. Deut 32:21-25 reads, “They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs.”
That God is not talking about post-mortem punishment here is evident from the fact that this judgment involves “disasters,” “arrows,” “hunger,” “plague,” “poisonous pestilence,” “the teeth of beasts,” “the venom of things that crawl in the dust,” “the sword,” etc. This is all language describing a national judgment against a generation of unfaithful Israelites (cf. vv. 20-21, 41-42), and not anyone’s post-mortem fate. The “fire” is not literal, but figurative; it’s an emblem of temporal judgment. Moses is not writing about a literal fire that was literally going to “consume the earth” or set “the foundations of the mountains” on fire.
As for Korah and his company, they are dead and will remain dead until the resurrection of the dead, at which point they will be made alive in Christ to be with their Saviour (remember, God is “the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”). Until they are made alive in Christ, they are in the state of the dead, where there is no conscious existence (Eccl 9:5, 10). Now, these verses state very clearly that “the dead know nothing” and that there is “no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol.” If this is so, then the “fire” of God’s anger which is said to burn to “the lowest depths of Sheol,” even if taken literally, cannot be tormenting them, can it? I hope it is evident to you that dead people are not aware of anything, and can’t feel anything; if this isn’t evident to you, then I encourage you to attend a funeral sometime.
There is nothing in the above passage that indicates the author is talking about a post-mortem punishment for anyone. The judgment to which the people in this passage exposed themselves by their wilful sins is just as temporal (and thus limited) as the one spoken of in Deut 32.
Regarding Paul’s words in 2 Thess 1:8-9, my view is expressed here: 2 Thess 1:5-10
Hey Sonia.
God has many characteristics of who He is. Love is who God is at His core. God is love. God is Holy. God is just. Remember it was Adam who rebelled against God and sinned against Him and was forced out of the Garden of Eden. God loved the world so much that he planned redemption for all mankind through Jesus Christ from Genesis to Revelation. He has given man a choice to have a relationship with Him through faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Man can receive Jesus by faith and be reconciled back to God or you can reject Jesus and pay the penalty of your own sins which is the second death, the lake of fire.( Rev 20:11-15).
This is repeated over and over throughout the Gospel.
Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.** 1 Corinthians 5:11-15**
We have freedom of will to make the choice, live for the Lord or live for ourselves. We live for the Lord, die to ourselves now, or we live for ourselves and die to ourselves later. One has reward, the other one suffers loss.
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up,* he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. * 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. Hebrews 6:7-9
So here is the scenario:
- Jesus Christ died for ALL, therefore ALL are considered dead in Him.
- Therefore there is only ONE foundation and it is Jesus Christ.
- All mankind, both believers and non-believers, are building on this ONE foundation whether they know it or not.
- Those who understand the foundation they are building on will build rightly and receive their reward, those who do not understand the foundation they are building on will build poorly and suffer loss as it is burned away but they themselves are saved but as one who escaped through fire.
In the end all will be saved, though many will suffer loss; but those who believe receive a reward.
1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.
You quoted somewhere else ‘for it is given to man once to die and then the judgement’
Isaiah 26:9 says:
‘For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.’
From that isn’t it just possible that those who undergo post-mortem judgement learn righteouseness from it?
KRIMA = JUDGMENT
- a decree, judgments
- judgment
a) condemnation of wrong, the decision (whether severe or mild) which one passes on the faults of others
b) in a forensic sense - the sentence of a judge
- the punishment with which one is sentenced
3)condemnatory sentence, penal judgment, sentence - a matter to be judicially decided, a lawsuit, a case in court
It is mistranslated sometimes as “damnation” or “condemnation” by translators of Scripture into English, the word ‘KRIMA’ simply means judgment of what is.
Example of KRIMA: There are two holes one a round and one a square. You have one round peg. It is KRIMA to decide where this peg rightly fits and KRIMA to decide where it does not. We observe round pegs fit in round holes.
It is the absolute conclusion of what something was or is.
Which is why, as you rightly point out:
Good Stuff Jeff!
KRISIS = JUDGMENT OF SEPERATION
- a separating, sundering, separation
a) a trial, contest - selection
- judgment
a) opinion or decision given concerning anything - esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong
b) sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment - the college of judges (a tribunal of seven men in the several cities of Palestine; as distinguished from the Sanhedrin, which had its seat at Jerusalem)
- right, justice
It is mistranslated sometimes as “sin” “damnation” in by translators of Scripture into English, the word ‘KRISIS’ simply means judgment of separation.
So where as KRIMA tells us what is what, KRISIS is seperation of that which we want and do not want.
Example of KRISIS: There are two holes one a round and one a square. You have one round peg. It is KRIMA to decide where this peg rightly fits and KRIMA to decide where it does not. We observe round pegs fit in round holes. It is KRISIS to insert the round peg into the round hole and not the square one.
KOLASIS = CORRECTION
STRONGS DEFINITION
correction, punishment, penalty
Translators of Scripture into English mistranslate it sometimes as “Damnation”, the word ‘KOLASIS’ simply means corrective punishment, also called correction.
Example of KOLASIS: There are two holes one a round and one a square. You have one round peg. It is KRIMA to decide where this peg rightly fits and KRIMA to decide where it does not. We observe round pegs fit in round holes. It is KRISIS to insert the round peg into the round hole and not the square one. It is KOLASIS to be frustrated and told we were wrong every time we ignore KRIMA and KRISIS and continue to jam a round peg into a square hole, it is KOLASIS to be alleviated when the round peg fits into the round hole and praised for the correct answer.
