Of course you do.
I see now where you are coming from, and that actually I’m wasting my time with you.
There seems to be 5 main views about salvation and what it means.
- **Inclusivism ** (I think that’s what it’s called)
In this view Jesus’ sacrifice covers everybody automatically. So everyone has been automatically saved as a result. But from what are they saved has not yet been made clear to me. Would God have sent everyone to hell forever, if Christ had not died for us?
-
Calvinism
Jesus’ sacrifice covers all the elect. The elect are saved from everlasting torment. The non-elect will have to undergo it. -
Fundamentalism
Jesus sacrifice covers everyone who acknowledges that he is a sinner, and who accepts Christ as his personal Saviour or who believes in the efficacy of His saving grace. Everyone who accepts Christ is positionally righteous and will go to heaven. Everyone else will have to undergo eternal torment. -
Works Righteousness
Do enough good works and avoid evil works and you’ll make it to heaven and avoid hell. Actually, I’ve never met anyone who actually believes this, but those subscribing to Calvinism and Fundamentalism think this view is ubiquitous. -
Early Christianity
The purpose of Christ’s sacrifice is to deliver us from sin, and be purified in this life, and be zealous for righteousnes so that we will become fit for the next. This purification is a life-long process. The apostles Paul and Peter expressed this.
- Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 …he has appeared once for all at the end of the age for the abolition of sin by the sacrifice of himself.*
However, if we never enter the door of salvation and undergo this process in the present life, we will need to be corrected in the next life. Out of His LOVE, God will provide exactly what we need to correct us. This may be severe, but never more that we absolutely need. God never acts out of retribution, but only out of LOVE—always.
Inclusivism is best covered in the article at Inclusivist . And not everyone is “automatically saved”. But I am also “hopeful” all are saved, as covered in Purgatorial Conditionalist .
I gave you my answer here:
As the Bible says: “For the word of God is living and active sharper than any double edged sword. It pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow, it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”
And as Romans 1:18 -20 “For he wrath of god is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made…”
I disagree. Ezekiel Chapter 18 discusses this. “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? As I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel. Behold all souls are Mine; the soul who sins shall die…”
We are responsible for our own sin.
That’s Origen - chatting with Dave - but also addressing us.
It’s not motivation. It’s time. There’s only so many hours in a day. And my time is pretty booked (i.e. learning languages, social media engagement, helping a homeopath, promote and publish a repertory, church and wisdom traditions, etc.).
At the end of the day, those presenting the best logical arguments - doesn’t make a theological concept true. And I’m sure God will tell, the logicians among us - the same thing…At the end of time. 
One can use logic and scripture - to prove:
We are all products, of a hard, theological determinism (Puppets on a string, in the Matrix trilogy)
Everything in Christianity, is ideas in the mind of God . No matter. Never mind. (i.e. Mary Baker Eddy and Bishop Berkeley)
The earth is flat (see youtu.be/VNqNnUJVcVs)
Etc.
But it doesn’t make it true. 
Origen said it WAS a matter of motivation, not time. And that’s fine with me. My point was and is, that a difficult problem, one puzzled over for hundreds/thousands of years, cannot be cleared up with no effort or a link to a site that takes 20 seconds to read ‘the answer’ - those sites have their uses, but not for giving pre-packaged answers to issues that need to be thought out.
If we want answers, if we really believe that an issue is important, we have to put in some time thinking the problem through, and reading the best case that can be presented. Which I did imo.
But onward and upward!
Someone sounds very busy. What’s the secret? Coffee or Chinese green tea?
Motivation is relative. If you’re highly motivated to do certain things, will you do other things instead that are of little motivation, interest or low priority?
What motivation is there to post in this thread? Does anyone here actually think they’re going to convince the others?
There’s usually someone who can present a better argument.
1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.”
Definitely tea. But I’m usually at a quandary - between Jasmine, Indian Chai, Earl Grey or Oolong
Which raises two questions:
Who determines what is the better argument?
And what is the criteria?
Which gives justification, for the Holy Fools tradtion.
LLC, I fully agree with you that we are responsible for our own sin. However, I fail to see why you think that fact is not consistent with what I wrote.
I wrote, “It is my view that each of Adam’s descendants has inherited from Adam and Eve a nature that has a tendency to sin (or do wrong)…”
Why do you think we cannot have inherited a TENDENCY to sin, and yet be responsible for our own sinful choices?
There is a growing body of scientific evidence that alcoholism has a genetic component.The tendency to drink to excess may be inherited:
verywell.com/alcoholism-is-it-inherited-63171
Does that mean for you that alcoholics who have inherited a tendency toward alcoholism are not responsible if they become alcoholics?
I’m inclined to think if we’ve “inherited” anything it is a tendency to sin OR to good, i.e., we are genetically wired to ‘choice’. The bible often points to the consequences of either.
“Outside of Pelagianism, most orthodox Christianity believe that the Spirit must work in a person before they believe.”
Likewise from your link this is an interesting quote… “The accusation of Pelagianism is simply a way to demonize and marginalize those who disagree with these Calvinistic doctrines.”
Okay I’m going to stir the pot so to speak, First of all, we need to address what this tendency to sin is. If that sin is just a moral pointer to doing wrong, we have to ask what the wrong is and to what degree do we have to understand the wrong and where it comes from. So in other words, who is making the determination to what is sin?
I wonder how many Pelagians, semi Pelagians & wannabe Pelagians are posting in this thread:
“Pelagianism, also called Pelagian Heresy, a 5th-century Christian heresy taught by Pelagius and his followers that stressed the essential goodness of human nature and the freedom of the human will.” (Brittanica.com)
Evidently it is in disagreement with Christian churches & history in general, not just Reformed.
Yep Pelagius fell afoul of Augustine and Co.’s Romish rule, being duly declared a heretic by the orthodoxy of the day… there was plenty of Rome the likes of Calvin still clung to.
Paidion, being the child of an alcoholic myself, I have no problem whatsoever with alcohol. I also have four siblings who likewise have no problem with alcohol. On the other hand, I know people who have drinking problems, whose parents never touched the stuff. I can only conclude from this that these scientists are wrong in their assumptions. If two sinful parents produce a sinful child, then it would logically follow that two righteous parents would produce a righteous child. However, I don’t see this being the case. Neither is this the case with Adam and Eve. Abel was righteous and Cain was not. Adam and Eve were human, just like the rest of us, and as such, we do not know all things because we are not God. Although a baby is born with legs, he/she does not jump out of the womb and run; nor does the child start doing calculus in kindergarten. The same goes with the spirit. We all have the spirit, but we must grow in that spirit.
I believe as it says in the Declaration of Independence, “We hold these Truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.”
We were made to exist as sovereign individuals, coming together collectively as a whole; in other words being a king amongst kings in union with the One true King(God) or I am at the right hand of the great I AM. Did you ever notice when you’re talking to someone, if you are sitting while they’re standing, or vice versa, it is very uncomfortable. The same goes with other things. I feel weird when people don’t make eye contact when speaking to me. If I go shopping with a friend, it doesn’t seem right if I’m buying and my friend is not. I can hardly stand being at the same table and eating in front of someone who is not eating. I think such things are inherent in us. We don’t like inferiority. I am a firm believer in teaching a man to fish. This is why I’m adverse to any doctrine or teaching that does not teach you of the Spirit of God that is in you and fails to build you up in the Spirit as an equal. (As an added note, I don’t believe this has anything to do with material possessions.) So to me, the doctrine of total depravity just doesn’t meet the criteria. Likewise, saying that we have inherited sin from our parents leads one to believe that he is incapable of doing anything about it. Jesus showed us otherwise.
Does this apply to zombies also 
