The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Can I be a good Christian without attending church?

Practices Church
#24

Note: this verse doesn’t speak of a requirement to “meet together” in body, physically. It doesn’t say non physical ways to “meet together” are excluded, such as via telephone, internet, etc. BTW, Paul himself was able to “meet together” with the saints in Corinth (1 Cor.5:3-5) without being there in body.

To obey this verse does not require anyone to “meet together” in a room bodily.

To avail oneself of help from other Christians does not require any to “meet together” in a room bodily. Again, there’s telephone, internet, letters, text messages, online chat, etc.

Ditto the previous remarks above.

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#25

Origen,
Do you actually believe that believers who don’t attend church have the same regular opportunities to minister to the Body of Christ through means like the telephone? Pulleeease!
And I’m sure, in your private piety, you see the blind see, nalignant tumors and blood clots vanish the way we routinely do in our prayer group! Let’s get real here! Besides, your efforts to find exceptions not only ignores the general rule; it ducks the plain meaning of the texts I cite.

#26

If you’re telling the absolute truth there, you have the the only group like it that I’ve ever heard of.
I am more than halfway not believing that those things happen ‘routinely’ anywhere, period. But if you say you see it routinely, good for you.

#27

Meeting with a group such as yours may be healthy, especially for newer believers. (I’m thankful for the many years of regular “church attendance” i had in my formative years as a new Christian.) OTOH, just choosing a “church” to attend at random could lead one to something that is rather detrimental to one’s spiritual health.

The vast majority of churches either don’t believe in such things, think they’re of the devil or don’t practice them. So finding such in the town one lives in may be problematic, if not impossible. Still such things happen all over the world & are wonderful. Yet one should beware since even Satan can do miracles:

Mt.24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.

Considering that meetings via telephone conference calls, the internet, etc, didn’t exist in that time, I don’t see why that is necessarily true.

#28

Dave,

My goal is not to have people take my word for it, but to have them join or start their own prayer group to see hew powerful group prayer can be for themselves. My prior prayer group in Buffalo, NY also saw marvelous answers to prayer, but not as consistently or dramatically as my current group.

In my view, pastoral prayers at church are less effective because
(1) people do not primarily attend church to pray, but to sing hymns, hear sermons, fellowship, etc.
(2) Prayer chains are less effective because the privacy of the praying unwittingly encourages a routinized or mechanical laundry list approach to prayer.
By contrast, when people take the trouble to drive or walk to a church specifically for the purpose of prolonged intercessory prayer, that act is already a strong expression of faith. And in prayer groups, the sharing is more detailed and visceral, not abstract and vague–a real key to effective prayer.

In life, theological understanding is the booby prize because it offers just enough spirituality to inoculate against the real thing–autnethic life-changing spiritual experience., of which the most important type is a profound connection with God through prayer. As Paul teaches:
“I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people, but their power; for the kingdom of God depends not on talk, but on power (1 Cor 4:19-20).”

In my prior prayer group in Buffalo, NY, I felt compelled to end each session with prayer for the physical safety of its members. What I didn’t share with them was my prescience that failure to pray in this way would spell the death of an undetermined number of its members. When I left that church, one of the first acts of the new pastor was to abolish that prayer group. Shortly thereafter, one of the group’s regular attenders was killed in a fiery car crash! I am still haunted by the meaning of my unprecedented urge to have the group regularly pray for the physical protection of each member at the end of each session.

These issues really call for a new thread on the art of effective biblical prayer, but I will refrain from starting such a thread because denizens of this site are too closed-minded about mystical spirituality.

#29

Perhaps we’ve just been exposed, over a lifetime, to fakery, ( I am most definitely NOT aiming this at you) so we throw the baby out with the bath-water.
I know that I have experienced great embarrassment personally by being fooled when I should have known better. Don’t know that I’m closed minded so much as not willing to put much weight on mystical things; my thinking being that I have my hands and mind more than full just with the weight of glory that comes from a scriptural understanding of God.
That being said, if you start that thread I’ll certainly read it.

#30

Do you take prayer requests for us that have health problems that make fellowship a struggle? My hearts is deeply warmed by your description of your prayer groups.

#31

Wherever it is you and your “faithful small prayer group”currently meets may I suggest you all be necessarily proactive and find a spot at your local hospital and start clearing the wards of the sick, infirm and dying — only seems the most logical and unselfish thing to do.

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#32

My tone may seem dogmatic, even arrogant, because I’m honestly speaking from the heart and form life experience. For years, I struggled with what I perceived as the yawning chasm between what the NT promises about miracles and answers to prayer and what I actually witnessed, confirmed, and experienced. The result was that agnosticism seemed the only viable option. I heard about Kathryn Kuhlman’s many miracles, but when I actually attended her packed out rallies in LA, I saw nothing but paranormal insghts, no convincing healings. That is why Paul’s body of Christ principle, “God gives greater honor to the inferior members,” hit me with such sledge hammer force.

davo: Wherever it is you and your “ faithful small prayer group ”currently meets may I suggest you all be necessarily proactive and find a spot at your local hospital and start clearing the wards of the sick, infirm and dying — only seems the most logical and unselfish thing to do.

A snide comment that I’m sure illustrates the poverty of the level of spiritual power manifest in your life! The Holy Spirit doesn’t jump just because we crack our whip. And one key to the effectiveness of our group prayer is that someone in our group knows that people in need of prayer well and shares a detailed and highly viscerall account of what they are going through. We are less effective when we don’t know the people in need personally or the details of their ordeal.

Even more than evidential NDEs and ADCs and healing miracles, the mind-blowing revivals of history strike me as convincing evidence of powerful interventions from a God who loves to act in lives, if we only will meet His conditions. In these revivals, unchurches masses suddenly and inexplicably become obsessed withi establishing an intimate connection with God.

In the Welsh revival (1904-06), 100,000 unchurched souls converted in just 4 months and were willing to stay in church, worshiping and feasting on God’s presense until 4 AM. Just imagine how real and sweet God’s presence must have been to motivate such staying power in unstructured revival meetings.

In the Hebrides Revival (1949-1952), hundreds on nonreligious young people suddenly and for no apparent reason fled a dance hall to find an open church late at night so they could get right with God. After the long evening services, all-might prayer vigils were maintained in whjch the power of the Spirit was so nourishing that they went to work the next day with no need for sleep!

In the Azusa Street Revival (1908), small children sat for hours in a hot unventilated old building without ever fidgeting or getting restless, because of the mesmerizing presence of the Spirit. Blind people were instantly healed and the upper level was full of discarded crutches from cripples who had been healed. The ultimate result is arguably 600 million converts who are Pentecostal in one form or another.

In all 3 revivals, there was a central humble figure who applied particular prayer principles to which modern Christians are indifferent to studying and grieve God by this apathy.

#33

Well, I been years around a Roman Catholic priest…who has the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God…I been around Native American Medicine people, healers, Eastern saints, Native American ceremonies, etc. While I have seen many miracles, I haven’t noticed them “routinely” - in any group. I would certainly, like to become a member - of the group that has the “routine” miracles.

#34

The only miracle that has happened to me personally was 20 years ago, when I was driving alone on Hwy 50 in Nevada, and noticed a female hitchhiker. She looked safe enough, and the weather was getting bad, so I did the good Samaritan thing.
We talked for awhile, she was funny and articulate, and then she came in a bit too close and said “I also happen to be a witch.”
I said “Pshaw” or something similarly Dickensian.
She said 'No, really I am. For instance, I can turn you into anything I want"
She leaned over and whispered something in my ear and sure enough, I turned into a motel.
Go ahead, groan. :slight_smile:

#35

Speaking from your heart does not preclude you from being arrogant, nor dogmatic.

#36

I mske no apologies because I know my motivation and recognize the appalling lack of spiritual balance implied by professing Christians on this site. But let me ask you this: Why are you even here? If you are not an honest truth seeker, why bother exposing us to your closed mind? But if you are an honest truth seeker, what would it take to shift you prespective from agnostic to spiritual player? Put more philosophically, if your perspective were crucially flawed, would you even want to know that? And if you would, how might you ever discover your serious error, if indeed you are fundamentally wrong? Or from the perspective of the philosophy of science, how is your position falsifiable even in principle? And if is not, I hope you do realize that it is epistemologically meaningless.

#37

rotflmao You truly are “berserk” — you might further ask your prayer clan to pray you have the gift of humility!

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#38

This week i’ve been looking into this Melbourne, Australia lady’s healing ministry that has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman:

“And pretty much every town I go into one of the first miracles he does is someone with a completely deaf ear gets their ear open.”

http://www.sid-roth.net/2017/01/03/our-guest-katherine-ruonala-3/

“Katherine Ruonala has been ministering prophetically for the last 16 years and her ministry has been compared to that of Kathryn Kuhlman. She studied Smith Wigglesworth, John Lake, and watched Kathryn Kuhlman videos as they all moved in the baptism of Holy Spirit with fire. Katherine pressed in to God for His Holy Spirit and as she did, there were times when she was on the floor, unable to get up, and experiencing visions of what God had planned for her. She says that the key to miracles is understanding God’s love for us. Our faith grows when we understand the Father’s love and realize that He wants the best for us. “Faith works by love, and miracles will spring forth immeasurably from a life unlocked by this love,” shares Katherine.”

Though many consider her church “cultic”:

.https://glorygathering.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/glory-city-church-cutting-edge-cultic/

.https://churchwatchcentral.com/2015/10/12/australias-glory-clown-katherine-ruonala/

“This video will bring clear biblical understanding of the demonic manifestations of Glory City Church to effectually prove how another “spirit” is at work and being poured out upon many amidst the Charismatic Movement.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqe8REOFNWQ

In light of the OP, would the OP consider that to be a “church” worth “attending” to be a “good Christian”, or better Christian, than those who don’t attend a “church” regularly? Or would meeting with such a “church” be a bad influence upon a person who would have been better off if they had attended no “church”?

#39

The people in my weekly prayer group are people of simple faith who a re active in their churches, but who quietly visit the lonely and needy elderly shut-ins and deliver Meals on Wheels to people who can’t get out and shop for themselves. In my view, their church service and humble unnoticed service to the needy are keys to the power of our prayer group.

#40

Well, I have seen the same thing…in ALL the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches…I have been either a part of…or have visited.

#41

https://www.womenofgrace.com/blog/?p=1198

.https://askthepastors.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/can-satan-heal-people/

http://www.eternalgod.org/q-a-9291/

#42

Quote from the article Origen posted:

Now the reason I wrote this little article, besides the fact that it answers that big question, is because I am writing an article or three on some false teachers who have strong occult powers and it appears they perform mighty miracles. But these are not miracles, these are but mere Satanic illusions.

True. There are three categories of healers in the world:

  • Those that are true healers. They point to God as the true healer. They don’t try to get you, to change your religion. They try to get you, to lead an ethical life. And they don’t “sell tickets”, “charge admission” or “advertise”.

  • Those who are complete fakes and use trickery, to convince you they are real. They are just phonies, snake oil salespeople, or clever stage musicians.

  • Then there are those, who use power for evil purposes. They gain control over people. In Native American terms, they try to “make them their dogs”.

#43

I understand what you mean Cindy, but I think that is because people are filling this void in their lives in other ways. Almost all humans need some form of community… Most of us will get that community in a variety of ways, but being that the largest chunk of time is spend at work, I’d bet a lot of people are getting this from work. I have some great relationships with people that I work with, so I’d guess that my need outside of that environment wouldn’t be as strong. Of course, people who are retired or stay at home moms (or dads!) would need more of this, as they would receive none of it from work. So it is no surprise these people are active in prayer meetings, activity groups, etc… and appear to be more outgoing and social than those of us who work in a social job already.

When I get home from work, the last thing I want to do is socialize! I do that all day! I am reminded in one of the Gospels that even Jesus was tired of people at times. He would “retreat”, take naps, etc… He knew the value of sleep, to get away, etc… Sleeping on the boat, 40 day fast in the wilderness, praying alone in the garden, etc…

That said, I am also understand where you are coming from. If I had to guess, however, you are probably retired, or stay at home mother and IIRC, you live in an area with a small population density. If these are true, then it IS going to be harder for you to find like minded people to socialize with. But, you could, of course find ways around that. You could move, for example, hard as that might be!