In my original essay to launch this thread, I suggest Timothy’s actually motive for abstaining from “wine” (perhaps Hero’s motives were the same?):
It is certainly not clear to me that it is alcoholic wine that “makes glad the heart of man.” Makes “goofy,” or “raucous,” or “uninhibited,” perhaps. But, yes, *unfermented *wine—and giving thanks for a good harvest—would make glad the heart of man.
As to the marriage feast at Cana, I can certainly believe that Christ partook of “wine,” but as to people being drunk, or Christ making fermented wine to help people become drunk, I already addressed that with you earlier, here:
EXACTLY qaz… Paul, the one with regards to the law considered himself “blameless”, understood the medicinal therapeutic value of “a little wine”, hence his instruction to Timothy. He obviously knew Timothy was not in danger of becoming a “winebibber” because he exercised self-control — not all have this self-control, thus the copious injunctions NOT to OVER imbibe. It is indeed a stretch to take this beyond that point in terms of implied abstinence being in and of itself a Christian virtue. The accusation was falsely brought against Jesus (Lk 7:33-34) of being “a gluttonous man and a winebibber” BECAUSE, unlike John, He ate and drank with others. It is fair and reasonable to conclude that Jesus exercised responsible moderation.
And I can only point out again that Scripture is CLEAR… “new wine” COULD and was OFTEN understood to be alcoholic…
Again, according to the above texts… new wine could either “cheer” or “enslave” — these texts can be ignored, but they cannot with any degree of Christian honesty be explain away.
Practically speaking, it is wise for most people to abstain from alcohol. Look around, people have self control issues. Food and drink is a great example. Now, the consequences of overconsumption of food is far less harmful than that of alcohol. One can kill not only themselves, but others. Many crimes are committed due to alcohol misuse. You do not need alcohol to live, unlike food and the misuse of the former is detrimental to all, not just oneself.
That said, I do not believe alcohol is evil. Nor is in sin to consume it. But, frankly, it just isn’t wise for most people. Often it is associated with young and unruly. Highschool, college parties, etc… I’d wager that 90% of alcohol consumption is misused and unrestrained and is a coping mechanism for many.
Again, the way it see it isn’t sin vs not sin, that is missing the point. The question is, is it wise? I’d say no. It can cause a lifetime of struggle for something that was never required for a full life. Drugs, I feel the same about. Who the heck would risk taking heroin hoping they could use it with self control? Seems short sighted and not so wise. Still, I judge no one. If I see a Christian drink a beer, I think nothing of it. But many do not feel that way. One could argue that it is a stumbling block for others… And we know what Christ said about that.
I pointed out that there are scholars, who argue for the “two-wine” theory. I pointed out, for example, that
I don’t mind someone here, taking a certain position:
No free will
Creationism (as a science) is true
The “two-wine” theory
The garden of Eden had smoking herbs
The OT Nephilim were space aliens
The devil really caused the flood
Trump is the anti-Christ
The non-Christian bad folks, temporary become zombies - during the tribulation
especially if it’s an established position. The problem with Hermano, is that he is on a crusade - to convince others.
And sometimes I am helping him out a bit here, like this cartoon illustrates
I wouldn’t say it is wise for MOST people to abstain. It seems to me that most people who consume alcoholic beverages are not harmed thereby.
Rather, I would say this it is unwise for SOME people to consume alcoholic beverages.
(Kaiser Health News) Sobering Up: In An Alcohol-Soaked Nation, More Seek Booze-Free Social Spaces. A national trend of boozeless bars is cropping up nationwide to create social spaces without the hangovers, DUIs and alcoholism culture. It’s part of a new push for sober options.
As I stated in a post on this thread three years ago:
Personally, I have never had the desire to go overboard and get out of control. Even in my old age (78) I drink 2 ounces of rum in a can of coke zero, twice a week. I never vary the weekly quantity, and I see no evidence of being harmed by this practice.
I have continued this practice until this day. I am now 81. I have always stuck to 2 oz. of Bermuda dark rum in a can of coke zero, twice a week. That is the extent of my drinking.