The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Church of England Articles allowed Universalism in 1563

Before looking at how first the Anabaptist and Unitarians were persecuted using a blasphemy law underpinned by the Athanasian creed, and second how the Catholics became scapegoats (two relatively simple storied). I now want to look at the stranger and more curious case of The Family of Love – I mentioned them earlier in the thread without knowing too much about them. I said then that I’d ask an old friend for some assistance. I haven’t been able to ask him – I haven’t seen him - but I have since read the standard and up to date work on the Family: ‘The Family of Love in English Society 1550 – 1630 by Christopher W,. Marsh – and a very interesting read it is too. And it is sufficient for my purposes.

There is a case for arguing that the ‘Family’ were a Universalist sect inspired by a mix of Christian Humanism and Spiritual Anabaptism. At the very least we can say that their religion had all of the nascent characteristics of the first proper Universalist sects that flourished in England in the following century. Yet I can detect a note of exclusivism in their teachings which seems foreign to Universalism proper – but they were a secret and exclusive society in a time not yet ripe for public expressions of Universalism as we understand it today. And they were a small sect, probably numbering no more than two hundred throughout our period.

However the ‘Family’ were well integrated into society – because of their non-confrontational and non-proselytising ethos, and because they guarded their beliefs with ‘Nicodemean’ dissembling – although these beliefs were often well known to others as were their affiliations. Members of the Family were employed in Elizabeth’s Yeomen of the Guard – who accompanied her on her great Processions through England, and, more intimately, guarded her bedchamber at night. Elizabeth tolerated them and it was only in the late 1570’s/ early 1580’s that the Calvinists kicked up such a fuss about them that they were investigated by the higher Church authorities – usually, it seems, with great mildness and comparative absence of intimidation. Eventually Elizabeth’s Privy Council forced an investigation into the religious affiliations of her Yeomen who, for a time, were sent out on the equivalent of extended leave from duty. However, the scare passed quickly and no serious consequences ensued for any members of the Family.

Before I look at the strange and curious history of The Family I first need to say something about an influential interpretation of who they were and their significance in history given by the atheist Marxist historian Christopher Hill. (Stay with me on this – it is relevant)

Christopher Hill was one of the greatest historians of the English Civil War (or ‘Revolution’ as he would have termed it) in a couple of generations. He had magnificent command of a huge range of sources. When I was young, I saw him speak twice –first on The ‘Diggers and the English Revolution ( at Middlesex Polytechnic (where I studied) and second on the Quakers and the English Revolution (at St Martin’s Lane Meeting House in London). The old boy was spell binding both times. I have noted that his take on Universalism in his book ‘The World Turned Upside Down’ comes with warm commendation from Louise Hickman in the ‘All Shall Be Well’ anthology. In this he gives his view of The Family of Love and many other issues. However, today I have real problems with Hill’s methodology.

Hill was rather doctrinaire in his Marxism. His use of Marxist theory when applied to the Elizabethan period suggests the following way of understanding the evidence is the correct one (I’ll give a crude version of the model to clarify things for you, but I assure you there is plenty/enough truth in what I am about to say).

The Marxist theoretical model has it that society is composed of different groups/classes that stand in a conflict relationship to each other. These groups do not share common interests and the conflict between them is what moves the historical process forwards. In this view religion in Elizabethan England was actually political ideology pure and simple; and each of the conflicting groups in society had a slightly different take on religion.

The Aristocracy – the Queen, the Lords and the Lords Bishops etc – wanted to retain power and hold on to the privileges they had which came from their status as landowners in the previous feudal stage of society. So their religious/political ideology was of a ‘conservative’ nature to justify their retaining hold on power; they made much of theological arguments about the God given, natural order of society – God given and natural as it is, always has been, and always will be – so they wanted to stress continuity with the past/tradition.

The new Middle Classes – merchants, small landowners, people in the professions etc – were the ‘new kids on the block’. They were frustrated with the aristocracy’s hold on power and wanted to overthrow them. They were chiefly represented by the Calvinists. Their religious ideology was based on literacy, thrift, and rampant individualism (hence their stress on individual rather than corporate salvation). At this moment in history they were the good guys – fighting for individual freedom and liberty from the oppression of the Aristocracy, developing commerce, science, technology and industry. However fast forward a few centuries when they have achieved their goal and ushered in Industrial Capitalism and they become the bad guys that need to be liquidated.

Then there were the Common People. Some were land workers who still largely bought into the feudal idea/lie of their obligations to the aristocracy – unless misery and starvation caused them to rebel. However, there was a burgeoning artisan class in the towns and (small) cities that formed the vanguard of what was to become the working class and were properly conscious of their own class interests. The Family of Love in this understanding were s a sort of underground resistance religious movement of the Common People, numbered in their thousands (rather than hundreds) who were Universalists and took the idea of ‘freedom from the law/Freedom in the Gospel’ as a licence for free love. Christopher Hill lauded Universalism, not because he believed it to be true – he was an atheist as I’ve stated above - but because he saw it as an example of the Common People throwing off the shackles of the oppressive ideology of their rulers. For him, belief in Universal salvation was part of the process of the Common People realising that religion is actually ‘false consciousness – a reality distorting ideology based on fictional supernatural sanctions. Therefore we can expect to find plenty of examples of popular religion actually being a vehicle for religious scepticism.’

Obviously I find this view, even in its non-caricature form, unsatisfactory (Hill was actually a bit more subtle than I’ve explained)

I think we need to be pragmatic about how we view groups/classes. Yes society does divide into groups that are unequal in power and wealth, but these groups are not always in conflict – there can be common interests between groups and indeed conflict within groups more bitter than conflict between groups. And if we impose the Marxist model on our evidence unthinkingly we can often be in danger of falsifying the same evidence – and Christopher Marsh’s study of the family reveals that the evidence in no way fits Christopher Hill’s Marxist theory.

Finally, of course I do not believe that religion can be reduced to politics. Religion is about our relationship with God - who transcends history and politics, and is the judge of both. However religion can often become confused with the political order – and it often did big time during the Reformation. I think that the Prophets of Israel were well aware of this general tendency in their critique of Priestly religion.

That’s enough Marxism. I hope it’s all clear and you will see the relevance in my next post.

All the best

Dick

I/we note that:

Erasmus wrote, in his Enchiridon that, ‘the torments of hell…are nothing but the perpetual anxiety of mind that accompanies habitual sin (and later qualified this statement under pressure so as to give it a non-Universalist ‘spin’).

The Family of Love taught that there is nothing to the pains of hell other than the torments of an unquiet conscience.
In the Parliament of 1584 – 8, just after the crisis period for the Family of love -1580 – 82 - had peaked and passed,

Elizabeth seemingly spoke against the teaching that there is ‘no Hell but a torment of conscience’ in Parliament, therefore seemingly condemning the teachings of the Family.

What are we to make of this? Well I cannot unpack the significance at a stroke – but be patient and things will become clear.

Christopher Marsh’s intriguing and exhaustive study of the primary sources on the Family reaches a number of conclusions that overturn the ideas of Christopher Hill (it’s a shame they are both named Christopher!!!).

There is no evidence to suggest that the Family of Love ever constituted a radical underground in Elizabethan society.

Their numbers were in the hundreds rather than the thousands – perhaps as few as two hundred. They were drawn mainly from the gentry rather than from the artisan class (the gentry were composed of families who had been freed from serfdom by their feudal lords during the Middle Ages, and were small land owners of modest wealth who often represented the common people in the House of Commons).

There is no evidence that the Family were involved in antinomian practices. They were accused of these by their Calvinist detractors in the early 1580’s but there is no evidence that the accusations were grounded in fact.

Members of the Family outwardly and peacefully conformed to the Anglican faith. ‘Recruitment’ was done with great care and in secret. They practised Nicodemean dissembling to cover up their true beliefs. They were non-confrontational and often highly respected members of their local communities with some holding public office as Justices of the Peace.
Despite their Nicodemean dissembling, the Family were well known about by the Queen and others but left alone because of their peaceable conformity.

In the early 1580s the Calvinists began to publish works against the Family demanding their prosecution as heretics. This coincided with a period of panic in Calvinist quarters. Their hopes of further Reform of the Church of England were on the wane as Elizabeth began appointing Bishops and senior clergy who were not sympathetic or even accommodating to their cause. It also seemed that Elizabeth was allowing herself to be wooed by a French Catholic Prince, the Duke of Anjou (although she was probably just playing at one of her diplomatic games). They badly needed a scapegoat for their anxieties.

The pattern of persecution of Family members- and of others- varied considerably in England (although it never amounted to much with the Family because of their gentle outward conformity). The idea that is was a good thing to persecute dissenters was commonsense– i a hundred years later or so this view had been reversed (a remarkable shift in the history of human sentiments) but it was still the common sense view during Elizabeth’s reign. However, the will to persecute varied from place to place.

• Some communities were too religiously lukewarm to bother with persecution.
• Some communities, in which the orthodox and the dissenters lived and worked closely together, had little stomach for persecution because of shared neighbourliness.
• A strong Calvinist presence helped stir up persecuting zeal – or ‘charitable hatred’ as it was then termed. Elizabeth did not ‘make windows into men’s souls’ but, as the old saw has it, ‘Calvin’s Geneva was a City of Glass’ in which the committees of Elders kept a close watch on people’s behaviour and were anxious to police the thoughts of their hearts. So the Calvinist need to investigate people’s thoughts and behaviour always fuelled persecution.
• Any conflict already present in a community – due to recent plagues of humans or cattle, or land disputes, or family feuding – also helped fuel persecution.

Christopher Marsh (not Christopher Hill) writes that -

**‘…it can also be suggested, tentatively at first, that criticism of the Family was to a certain extent something rather like displaced criticism of Elizabeth herself. There were, arguably, significant points of contact between the Queen and her Familist guardsmen. Elizabeth’s attitude to religious conformity was, for example, very similar to that of the Family. She and they both held that, from a magisterial point of view, an individual subject’s loyalty, obedience and outward conformity ought not count for more that his or her profound acceptance of authorised theology.

Elizabeth I is often associated with a reluctance to make windows into the souls of men, though the words were not originally hers (as I have stated in previous post, that the aphorism comes from her courtier Sir Francis Bacon). The Familists argued in self defence that persecution of one person by another for any case touching conscience was ‘not Christian like’. They urged that matters which only God could judge should not be dealt with by mere mortals, and they lamented the ‘stretching and strayning’ currently being applied to force the consciences of ordinary people. The puritans who wrote and preached against the Family of Love despised this attitude, and expended much energy and ink in countering it.**

(Marsh - The Family p.118)

So what did Elizabeth have to say In the Parliament of 1584 – 85 – just after the crisis period for the Family of Love had peaked and passed? Yes she did seemingly speak against the teaching that ‘there is no Hell but a torment of conscience’, and therefore seemingly condemned the teachings of the Family. For this, of course, she earned Christopher Hill’s implicit Marxist condemnation as an aristocratic tyrant.

But whoa – hold the horses here; I’ve checked Hill’s source - J.E. Neale’s ‘Elizabeth I and her Parliaments 1584 - 1601’ (p. 70) and something very different seems to be going on. Hansard did not exist at this time – Hansard being the record of all speeches in Parliament made verbatim by a clerk – and Elizabeth’s speeches were jotted down from memory by her MPs if they seemed particularly memorable; so Neale’s sources are not 100% certain – but the context of Elizabeth’s remembered words suggest that she meant something rather different than condemning the teachings of the Family. Neale tells us that she is reported as saying the following , obviously in a very great huff –

**‘Again’ – and now her diatribe once more embraced the Puritans – ‘you suffer many ministers to preach what they list and to minister the sacrament according to their own fancies, some way one, some another, to the breach of unity: yea, and some of them so curious in searching matters above their capacity as they preach they wot (know) not what – that there is no hell but a torment of conscience.’ **

It would be wrong to completely identify the Calvinists with the Puritans – but the Calvinist made up the major portion of Puritanism at this date, certainly in Parliament. Elizabeth appears to be speaking here against both the Calvinist subversion of Royal Decrees on Holy Communion, and against the Calvinists tradition of holding ‘Prophesyings’ – un-programmed, inter-active sermons whose content had not been vetted by her Bishops (and Christopher Hill would also have seen this as evidence of the Queen’s aristocratic tyranny). However, there was no prospect at this date of a Calvinist going soft on the doctrine of Hell – this was the Calvinist’s charge against the Family of Love (along with antinomianism). I feel that Elizabeth must surely have had an ironic, bitingly sarcastic intent in her words to the ‘Puritans’ here.

In my next and final post on the Family – before moving on to the Anabaptists and Catholics – I would like to say something in more detail about their beliefs and the influence of the Humanist and Anabaptist Spiritual traditions on these.

Thanks for sticking with me.

All the best

Dick

Hi All -

Let me know if I’m still holding you (it’s Saturday, and a time for a welcome break from the ‘Abrogation of the 42nd’ – and even I am going out tonight, although I’ve been living a semi-monastic life of late!!! :laughing: ).

I think that the Family of Love are interesting to us not because they had any influence on Elizabeth or Matthew Parker - I don’t believe this for a moment - but because they show that Elizabeth tolerated people of Universalist or near Universalist beliefs very close to her, and only wobbled in her tolerance when her Privy Council demanded an investigation into them (due to agitation from the Calvinists). Also, I’ve found the story of the Family interesting in terms of being finally persuaded by it to see the evidence without Christopher Hill spectacles guiding my vision. Before Christmas I was ready to give up the quest here when I read Hill talking about Elizabeth’s address to Parliament about Hell ; but I was astonished when I realised the real context of her remark and that Hill could have missed the irony that looks me right in the face when I read it - I wonder if you agree?.

Obviously Elizabeth was motivated by power in wanting to limit the Calvinist ‘Prophesyings’ - and the Prophesyings gave a generation of people experience in a sort of democratic process which helped empower them to agitate for change in the next century; and that has to be good and wonderful. However, I am not a Calvinist, nor am I a Marxist; therefore I don’t need to think that Elizabeth was only a control freak in this matter; some of her motivation was to protect people from ‘charitable hatred’.

Certainly any sorties of harsh punishments of branding, flogging and mutilation being meted out to Calvinists in her reign are groundless. These were to happen in the following century at the initiative of the Stuart Kings who lacked the moderate wisdom of Elizabeth and her Council

All the best

Dick

Absolutely!

Again, if you notice I am silent for a time, please do not think I have lost interest. I just am not always on a stable internet connection and take as much time as I can, when I can. Plus I have a 3yr old I have to fight with as well… :frowning:

So please, post all you feel like and I will be following along as I am able. :smiley:

Right with you Dick and that was a great discovery about Elizabeth’s speech. I agree with your interpretation of what she meant, the ironic tone. Just goes to show it is worthwhile checking references and not just relying on the author to do so. Good work, Sherlock:)

“Charitable hatred” and “cities of glass” give me an Orwellian chill.

When times get tough, we hunger for the security of the herd. Like sheep, we naturally gravitate to others who look like us, behave like us, speak like us. We feel intuitively that people different to us are far more likely to harm us. Since great comfort is found in numbers, we proselytize energetically. We also enforce strict conditions on any who wish to enter our tribe, and are eternally vigilant for wolves.

Remove the biological inclination to form herds, and the history of the church would be profoundly different.

Hi Paul –thanks. Yes of course –a three year old to fight with is all embracing!!! I’m a carer at the moment so I have to be on hand a lot but when the going is good – which it is at the moment – I’ve got time on my hands just through having to be on hand (and that’s one reason why it great for me to touch base with others in cyberspace!). You are doing fantastically well keeping up with this (and you know I’m grateful for your interest, I hope; because I really am).

Hi Drew – if I hadn’t been idly trawling the internet I would never have seen your question on this thread – and what a fascinating question it has proved. I’m not a professional historian – although I know the rules of the games from being a generalist humanities teacher – but even a comparative amateur like me can find interesting stuff and develop interesting ideas quite easily because, as far as I can see, the study of the history of Christian Universalism is still in its infancy. I know you’ll stick with me until this story is done – then I think I’m going to take a couple of months off posting on this site (apart from staying in touch). I have an idea for a new thread – but hope to discuss this with you when we meet in late April (we hope). I like the idea of being Sherlock Holmes – now he was a really potty character!

Hi Allan – I knew you were probably joining with us here. Chime in again before this story is done – it’s always really good to hear.

You are absolutely right about the comfort of the herd. Orwell’s nightmare vision was based on a fear of Stalinism taking hold in Britain. As with the Stalinist show trials, so with the witch trials and the heresy trials of the Reformation period; it’s all the same tragic process. I mentioned ‘Stepping Stones Nigeria’ in a recent post. This charity provides support for children in the Niger who have been accused of witchcraft and cast out of their communities (and it happens rather too often, and how very sad in this light to recall the old African saying that ‘it takes a whole village to bring up a child’). This charity also agitates for changes in the law regarding child protection in Niger.

Again what is going on in Niger is the same old story of the persecuting herd against the scapegoat. Niger certainly has problems very similar to those of early modern Europe to fuel persecution – rapid pace of social and technological change causing displacement and alienation, scarcity plague, institutions of central authority (including legal institutions) still in their infancy etc. But tragically the story needed to rationalise persecution of children has come from a distorted form of our Christian faith. There is a woman who has made some films about the involvement of children in Satanism that have proved very popular in Niger. She has been inspired by literature from the West such as Chick tracts and ‘Children who read Harry Potter books are initiates of Satanism’ type stuff, as much as by indigenous culture (in fact more so).

I first became aware of Stepping Stones Nigeria when I watched a documentary on the television about their. There was one scene that will always remain with me; a modern passion play – but with the climatic lynching actually averted (thanks be to God). On the outskirts of a village a small crowd of men had assembled with a girl child – and she was such a bonny child - set apart and standing facing them. One of the men had a machete, all had dead eyes, and they were just on the point of turning into a mob. The child had palpable fear in her eyes but there was also a sense of dignity and affront to her as if her eyes were saying – ‘They hated me without cause’. Fortunately she didn’t face the mob alone. A Stepping Stones Nigeria worker had his hands on the girl’s shoulders and was acting as her advocate barking at the crowd – ‘Call yourself Christians? You should be ashamed of yourself. I’m taking this beautiful child away from you into our care’.

In my view, it is a shame that the story of Susana and the Elders has been relegated to the Apocrypha in Protestant translations of the Bible – for I understand that in the early Church her ordeal of being falsely accused by the elders was seen as a type of Christ’s trial. In Susana’s story Daniel speak sup for her and saves her. And he was seen at this point in the story as speaking with the authority of the Holy Spirit (as I understand it, the Paraclete does not only mean ‘The Comforter – it also means ‘The Advocate against false accusation’).

Very good wishes to you all

Dick

All good wishes

Dick

I think I’ve made my point about scapegoating being universal phenomena – both secular religious. I’m sure we all have known forms of it in our own lives – any bullying is an example of scapegoating. All of us can be taken up in the frenzy of it, and all of us are capable of joining a lynch mob – whether of a violent kind or a more subtle kind; so I for one cannot feel smug when looking back on the days of religious persecution and ‘charitable hatred’. ‘Charitable hatred’ is the title of a fine book by Alexandra Walsham on ‘Tolerance and Intolerance in England 1500 – 1700’. One of the lessons she draws for today at the end of her study is that the outcome for tolerance was never a foregone conclusion – it was always a precious and fragile thing; and we need t be vigilant for and nurturing of this precious and fragile thing today; because we would lose it.

It is a little known fact – but nonetheless true – that both heresy hunting and witch hunting were quite rare during the Middle Ages (in fact witch hunting was unknown). Yes the Middle Ages had its appalling collective crimes – the Crusades against Islam (and against the Eastern Christians and the Jews that got slaughtered along the way), and the Crusade against the Gnostic Christians of Southern France (in which up to a million people died). However, accusation and persecution of individuals were uncommon because the law – both Church law and secular law – favoured the defendant against the accuser.

This all changed during the Renaissance and Reformation in the anxious birth pangs of early modern Europe. The law for the trial of heretics by the Church and the burning of them by the secular authorities – ‘De Hertico Comburendo’ - did not enter the English statues until the late fourteenth century; and it was used first against the Lollards for their wobbly ideas about the mass (in Catholic terms). King Henry IV established the law – and many think this was an act of repression – Henry was a usurper who had deposed and murdered the legitimate King Richard II and needed a diversion (he also longed to go on Crusade but ill health prevented him). His son Henry V continued the policy and also dreamed of conducting a Crusade, but settled for waging war on the French (and, at the Battle of Agincourt, where he ordered the slaughter of French prisoners, committed a war crime even by the low standards of medieval chivalry).

The witch hunts that plagued Europe during the reformation - Calvin was an enthusiastic supporter of these - were never really bad in England and only got going in earnest after Elizabeth’s reign. Her successor James I of England (and James the IV of Scotland - the son of Mary Queen of Scots - had been raised apart from his mother as a Presbyterian. When he became King of England he willingly embraced Anglicanism because of the enhanced authority it gave him, but also managed almost single handedly to kick start the Witch Hunts here. He was obsessed with the new and ‘exact science’ of demonology, and wrote a turgid and pompous book about this having already presided over the interrogation f witches in Scotland

There are some myths that circulate on the Internet about the European witch hunts (And I was enormously impressed to see a neo-pagan scholar debunking these). Today angry pagans, and others, refer to these as ‘the burning times’. They suggest that –

Up to nine million people perished in the three hundred years of the witch hunts. The actual figure is between sixty thousand and one hundred thousand – which is still a terrible toll
Most of the victims were women. Up to one third of the victims were men and in at least one county – Iceland – there were more men killed as witches than women.

The victims were pagans persecuted by Christians. A very few may have been healers practising ancient lore. However, they were in no way related to Neo-pagans today – most of whom follow a new form of neo-Platonism which was created in the twentieth century. (We note that Origen had a respectful but frank dialogue with the ancient neo-Platonist Celsus, and Christians often had cordial relationships with neo-Platonists in the ancient world - while still attempting to spread the Gospel to them. Neo-Platonism should not be equated with the debased and vicious scapegoating paganism of Roman state religion). And most of the victims were Christians; often illiterate Christians who did not have a handle on the definitions of orthodoxy required by the magisterial Churches at this time as matters of precise definition rather than of ‘mystery’.

The Church was the main instigator of the witch hunts. Often Church tribunals were far more scrupulous than secular kangaroo court in sifting evidence. Indeed, it was inquisitors of good conscience who first raised doubts about the whole process, along with Protestant movements such as the Pietists who had rejected the forensic externalism of learned Reformed and Lutheran Protestantism for an interior religion of the heart.

I thought it was good to raise these issues at this point – but it’s high time I got back to Elizabeth. We need to look at the Family of Love a little more closely to decide whether or not they were actually Universalists (and therefore whether or not Elizabeth actually tolerated real Universalists at close quarters). And after this we need to consider whether the religious persecution that took place in her reign necessarily disproves that she could have harboured Universalist sympathies. None of this affects the case for Matthew Parker – in my view; the persecutions did not begin until the year of his death (and by this time he was no longer in charge).

Still with me? I promise to get back on track!

All the best

Dick

Dick,

Indeed, the Paraclete was culturally a trusted acquaintance who would stand up with you during court and face the judge with you. Naturally this led to people having increasing experience at doing so, and so eventually becoming professional defense attorneys. But this is certainly what St. John was talking about when in one of his epistles he calls Christ our paraclete (leading to some confusion compared to Jesus’ application of the term in GosJohn: in the epistle the paraclete is personally Christ, but the sum of the characteristics in the Final Discourse point toward the paraclete being a different person from either the Son or the Father, and the role of the paraclete is quite different.)

The point in modern parlance is that when we face the judge, Who shall be Christ, our Judge is also our friend in the defense. Thus also leading to the danger of refusing to have the Judge on our side in the defense! (Although that portion of 1 John indicates Christ is still on our side even when we refuse to have Him on our side, or so many universalists, myself included, add up the contexts.)

Meanwhile, keep up the good work! (I posted around 900 pages of metaphysics on the forum a few years ago. I assure you, I don’t have any problem with your research report project at all. :smiley: )

Hi Jason -

Thanks for the scriptural foundation for the Paraclete as Advocate - that’s wonderful! I’d not seen this passage interpreted in this way before- so very helpful; and I no longer have to fall back exclusively no Susanna and the Elders. Also - well I know that you do know, but I’ll say it anyway: I know that what I am writing about here is of interest to some people here (and of great interest to Drew and Paul); but I do want to thank you for your hospitality old chum. I would not have remotely dreamed of putting this stuff together - however informal the ‘putting together’ is at the moment - if Drew’s question hadn’t stimulated me (so I’m hugely grateful to Drew also). I don’t know what I’ll do with it after this - but at least if I don’t have the opportunity to do anything with it (because I love my job as a Community Education teacher and am very happy these days looking after my Mum - at least it’s up here on this site to stimulate other people).

In addition I do hope to have the rough narrative finished by the end of this week - I’ve got a lot of work coming up next week - and it’s amazing that I’m actually talking about all of the things I know about and want to communicate with you all at the moment, there’s not a lot of other stuff in my bonnet full of wild bees. So I won’t be quite so manic a poster soon. But once this stage is finished, and I’ve had a wee break, I will do the work of referencing and checking sources for this a bit at a time; and I will post this gradually.

All the best

Dick

Hi Drew - have been to work this morning. Will do a post later today. All is well and I hope you are not havkng to work too hard with your gruelling pastoral duties.

All the best old chum

Dick

Just about keeping on top of things here thanks - looking forward to your post.

So here we go – the beliefs of the Family of Love in easy steps.

I have no knowledge of the primary sources here; I am completely dependent on Christopher Marsh’s expert study. However, I will say that I’m not at all sure that Marsh knows a huge amount about the bigger picture of parallel Christian traditions (reading about the Familists beliefs parallels with Eastern Orthodoxy, Christian Humanism, and the Anabaptist Spirituals – including their later English offspring like the Diggers and the Quakers – kept staring me in the face; so I’ll draw some parallels in my explication).
The Familist’s took their inspiration from the writings of Hendrick Niclaes (or ‘H.N.’ as they referred to him anonymously). Niclaes was a Dutch Anabaptist of the ‘Spiritualist’ tradition – but with some important differences from the mainstream Spiritualist tradition of Hans Denck and Sebastian Frank. I need to give a brief summary of Anabaptist traditions now.

The Anabaptists originated among the poor of the Reformation although their leaders were often highly educated Christian Humanist scholars. All Anabaptists had/have in common the basic idea that membership of the Church should be a matter of voluntary association. Hence the rite of adult baptism was/is for them, not so much a fetish – ‘a thing necessary for salvation’ (as it sometimes can be with Strict/Particular Baptists who, it appears, are not part of the genuine Anabaptist lineage). Rather it is a sign that membership of the Church should be voluntary – which goes against the traditions and instincts of Magisterial Protestantism. Indeed one of the driving forces for religious toleration in Europe was that the rest of the Church finally came round to reading the scriptures as the Anabaptist did/do on this point – namely, that in the pre-Constantinian Church there was no compulsion to join (and this is the correct interpretation surely).

Also the Anabaptists shared common ideas about not buying into the coercive state. Hence the reluctance to take oaths, to bear arms, and for some sects, even the advocacy of a type of Christian Anarchism in which all good are held in common (all of this being perceived as an enormous threat by Magisterial Protestantism – never mind the Munster debacle).

The Anabaptists – possibly as a result of the Munster debacle – divided into two distinct groups. There were the Scriptural Anabaptists – the Mennonites, the Hutterites (and latterly the Amish) – who emphasised the authority of the Word as scripture (interpreted with their own distinctive theology). The first Universalist sect of Scriptural Anabaptist that we know of was/are the Tunkers/Dunkers who originated in Germany in 1708 and became the Church of the Brethren of Christ. To my knowledge, before this time the mainstream traditions of Scriptural Anabaptists were annihilationist in eschatology.

Another common feature of the Scripturals during the Reformation – or at least it was something that they were accused of - was a slightly heterodox view of the Incarnation first expounded by the Anabaptist leader Melchior Hoffman. According to Hoffman Christ did not take the sinful body of human flesh after his mother. Rather he had a spiritual body of light – and this obviously was seen by Trinitarian/incarnationalist Christians as heresy/Doceticim. It was for these teaching that Anabaptists were burnt in England during the reign of the Tudor Monarchs and during the reign of James’ I - their judicial murder underpinned by the authority of the Athanasian Creed.

Alongside the Scriptural tradition developed the Spiritualist tradition. The Spiritualist tradition traces its lineage to Hans Denck – the Christian Humanist scholar who was in Basle at the same time as Erasmus. The Spiritual Anabaptists emphasised both the Authority of the Word as Scripture, and the Authority of the Word as the Logos/Light that is within every human being (a theme that Origen with his emphasis on Christ as Wisdom would have agreed with). One reason for Denck’s Spiritualist emphasis was compassion for the poor and the illiterate who had recently been deprived of the comfort of Catholic sacramentalism but did not have the level of education required to comprehend the subtleties of Protestant doctrine. Denck’s emphasis was not on correct doctrine; rather he emphasised putting on the life of Christ in a spirit of Love and living this life gently with all one’s heart (I’ll have more to say about this later). This emphasis is certainly consonant with Erasmus’ Christian Humanism and many think Denck was directly influenced by Erasmus.

As Morwenna Ludlow argues in ‘Universal Salvation – the Current Debate’ Denck was accused at least three times of holding to a doctrine of Universal Salvation. However, his extant writings only suggest that he believed that God desired to save everyone – but this alone was an important departure from the Continental Magisterial Protestant tradition at the time.

The Anabaptist Spirituals – like the Anabaptist Scripturals – deplored the religious wars and religious persecutions of early modern Europe. Indeed it was an early sect of continental Spirituals that seem to have influenced the Quaker tradition of meetings for Worship; this sect known as the Collegiants, decided to suspend the practice of Holy Communion because divisions over its meaning were the cause of so much bloodshed at the time in Europe. So they met in silence as a sign of inaugurated mourning to their fellow Christians; they asserted that they would only resume the practice of Communion when all were pure enough in heart to comprehend its spiritual meaning which is ‘the Peace of Christ’.

The writings of the Spirituals had a big influence in England from the reign of James I onwards when, for example, the Anglican Rector of St Martin’s in the Field, Dr John Everard clearly taught in the manner of the Spirituals. These writings also had a massive influence on the sects that grew up during the English Civil War that approximated to Universalism – notably the Quakers and the Diggers/True Levellers.

So the Spirituals had multiple influences –

The influence of the irenic tolerant spirit of Erasmus’ Christian Humanism and – with their Logos doctrine of the Inner Word – a Humanist affirmation of intrinsic human dignity despite the Fall.

The influence of Greek Orthodoxy from Origen etc via Erasmus and the other Christian Humanists– for the Spirituals a notional belief in Justification through faith was not enough. It was also necessary for the true Christina to undergo the process of ‘theosis’/sanctification, of growing from the likeness of God into the image of God.

A social radicalism shared with the Scriptural Anabaptists and dismay at persecution and religious war which they shared with both some elements of Christian Humanism and with the Scripturals.

The Family of Love are certainly in the Anabaptist Spiritualist tradition – with an important difference. They were Nicodemian in secrecy and were not radical in their social teachings. Perhaps this is because they were Spiritualists in a hostile world before the time was ripe. I will tell you more about their beliefs in my next post.

All the best

Dick

Hendrick Niclaes first followers on the continent were scholarly Humanists rather than radical sectarians. Marsh lists Christopher Plantin the great Antwerp printer and Abraham Ortelius, the cartographer amongst his followers; and I have also heard that the great painter Peter Breughel the Elder may well have been of this party. . For them, Marsh argues,
Niclae’s ‘appeal lay in his mysticism, his call for spiritual renewal, and his desire to restore harmony to a troubled world’ (Marsh, p.29). I understand that the original context of Familst Nicodemanism may be the fear of the Inquisition when Spain occupied the Dutch lands (but I’m unsure of this)

In England scholars prior to Marsh have argued that when Niclaes writings were imported to England during Elizabeth’s reign they were grafted on to a native traditions of radical Protestant Lollardy. However, Marsh argues that a better context for understanding them would be the English Christian Humanist tradition with its optimism about human freewill and, therefore, not only about the human role in salvation but also the ability of human beings to influence their fate for the better (this optimism being fed by Erasmus and by the English mystics such as Richard Rolle and Walter Hilton, and by continental mystics such as Thomas A Kempis).

Niclaes writings are, apparently, difficult to translate. He had no respect for the discipline of academic discourse and his style is often florid and obscure. To my mind the salient points of his teachings are as follows:

He teaches that, ‘Christ’s suffering, though absolutely vital, could not be sufficient in itself. Something positive is required of us’ (Marsh, p.19)

He teaches that it is required of us that ‘the believer should be taught to empathise with Christ, learning ‘to take up his cross on him to follow after Christ his Saviour in his suffering and death on the cross’. Through suffering with Christ, and sharing in his crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension H.N. tells his children that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost and the heavenly fellowship ‘will inhabit you, and live and walk in you’. (Marsh p. 21)

He teaches on the imitation of Christ in a way that implies a focus of ‘realised eschatology’. Heaven and hell are states of being in this life now (and hell is the pains of a troubled conscience). Judgement is now as we respond or turn away from the Christ in us, and resurrection and ascension are likewise now as we are transformed from the old Adam into the new. This is not to say that there is no life to come – there is no suggestion of this in Niclaes. However the important thing is that eternal life should begin now in our experience and not dependent on definitions and book learning.

He describes the goal of this process as being ‘godded with God’ – and for this reason the Familists in England were accused of Perfectionism leading to antinomianism, allowing them to sin without scruple. However there is no evidence of them being antinomians and their perfectionism actually seems more akin to the Orthodox belief of ‘theosis’ – of the believer/disciple gradually being transformed from the image into the likeness of God.

He implores human beings to transcend their confessional divisions and their religious violence. As Marsh tells us: ‘The shedding of blood was to cease, as Christians, Jews, Muslims, Turks and heathens responded to the call’ (Marsh p.23). At times Niclaes seems to be holding out a universal hope that as the message of Love is spread the existing forms of religion will reform from within and humanity as whole will be redeemed.

He teaches that members of the Family should live in love and gentle peace with their fellow men and should obey the laws and the magistrates of the realm in which they live. However, there is also a note of inconsistency/ double vision in his emphasis that his message should be passed on very carefully and in secret. And sometimes Niclaes speaks as if the people of this world who are not members of the Family are perishing in their own violence (but this could simply be interpreted as meaning that those who are not yet of the Family are still perishing inasmuch as they are still living violent lives).

Finally he sometimes speaks as if he has quasi-Messianic status – and that his words have sounded the last trump. However, given his emphasis on devotion to Christ – and not on devotion to Niclaes – this does seem to be hyperbole. He seems to me to be claiming that he has understood the inner meaning of the Gospel against the mainstream traditions of Protestantism. Certainly his followers in Antwerp never took his ‘claims’ seriously and here is no reason to think that his English followers did either (although the evidence for exactly how they received his teachings is fragmentary compared to the evidence of the Antwerp Familists).

This movement may have been a little odd – but it does seem to have the features of some forms of Christian Universalism, at least in germinal form.

All the best

DIck

The Family of Love had no influence on the Abrogation of the 42nd Article by the convocation of Bishops Parker, Gheast and Cox in the 1560’s – the writings of Hendrick Nicales did not begin to circulate in England until 1575. However, it would seem that both the Elizabethan drive for only outward conformity in matters of religion and tolerance of inward conscience, and the Abrogation of the 42nd provided the context for their mild treatment at the hand so of the authorities.
In his Introduction to his study of the Family, Marsh states that -

‘…the Family of Love was established at the courts of Elizabeth I and James I to a degree that has never been previously realised. Familists served successive monarchs not only as Yeomen of the Guard, but as officers of the Jewel House, the armoury and the Wardrobe. Members of the fellowship were also installed in a variety of offices at the Tower of London. They almost certainly had powerful friends in even higher places, though such people took great care to cover their tracks. Here and there, however, the outline of a footprint, perhaps even a royal footprint – is just visible through the dust’ -he’s implying the outline of Elizabeth’s footprint here. (Marsh p.16)

When the scare about Familism reached its height in 1580, it was Bishop Cox – the third member of the Convocation called by Parker - who was dispatched to investigate the Familists in Wisbeach near Ely. Cox has the reputation for being the least gentle and most intolerant of the Convocation compared to Parker and Gheast. However, his methods of interrogation were rather soft: ‘…gentle and private Christian admonition was applied first, with an emphasis on persuasion rather than coercion. The suspects were then lead through a series of stages up until the point when they read aloud pre-written diatribes against Niclaes and his works’; they then ‘ended their ordeal standing before the assembled ranks of their neighbours (and again denouncing Niclaes)’. ‘The cycle of reconciliation was completed’ …when, following a service, the suspects ‘went to dinner with their preacher’. (Marsh p. 106)

This is mild stuff, and most known Familists were spared this ordeal because they were protected by their Christian neighbours against the prying eyes of authorities. Marsh again - ‘On 3rd October a Royal Proclamation was issued specifically to combat the perceived dangers of the Family. The Queen, or those directing her quill, reported that ‘there are certain persons who do secretly in corners make privy assemblies of divers simple unlearned people. The proclamation ordered, in terms which do not suggest the instinctive religious moderation of the Queen, that the Family’s leaders were to be attached and committed to prison, and to receive such bodily punishment and other mulct as factors of damnable heresies’. The legality of this demand was surely dubious.(Marsh p.106)

The tone of Elizabeth’s Privy Councils statement about the Family is anxious rather than hysterical: ‘we are given to understand that there are divers persons terming themselves to be of the Family of Love, maintaining erroneous doctrines and using private conventicles contrary to her Majesty’s laws’. However the scare had been stirred up by more passionate pens; notably by Calvinists/Presbyterians – or ‘the hotter sort of Protestants ‘ as Marsh refers to them whose ‘faces turned not pale with anxiety but purple with anger. Some called for executions, and book titles pointed the quivering finger of accusation at ‘an horrible sect of gross and wicked heretics’. Robert Knewstub, a notable Calvinist contemplated Niclaes writings and concluded that ‘the lowest pit of hell shall not be able to afford worst wares’. (March p.111).

As I have previously said Marsh argues cogently that the Calvinist hysteria over the Family coincided with their anxiety that Elizabeth was appointing Bishops increasingly unsympathetic to the cause of Reform and to their anxiety that she might be prepared to marry a French Catholic Prince. (The French Prince was actually François of Valois the Duke of Alencon – and not the popinjay Duke of Anjou as I previously suggested – and it seems that the prospects for the match seemed very serious for a time.

Also – ironically – Robert Parson a Jesuit joined the chorus of scapegoaters; again this was a time of great anxiety for English Catholics after the excommunication of Elizabeth by the Pope.

Marsh gives evidence that Elizabeth herself may well have been sympathetic to the toleration of Familist. ‘When a Familist tract – ‘An Apology for the service of love’ – was eventually printed in 1656, a note on the title page explained that it had been ‘penned by one of her Majesty’s menial servants, who was in no small esteem with her for his known wisdom and godliness’. In 1606, a hostile commentator looked back over the reign of Elizabeth, arguing that ‘she had always about her some Familists, or favourers of that sect’, conjecturing that she must have been aware of the works of Niclaes’. Robert Knewsburth (mentioned above), followed a complaint about these, ‘shameless dogs thrusting themselves (for a fatter sop) into houses of great wealth’ with the observation ‘the the ivy which is so despised and so low a shrub does, in climbing little by little, does kill the tallest and mightiest Oak in the forest’ and Marsh muses, ‘How precisely is such a metaphor to be understood?’ (Marsh pages 119 – 120). None of this is ‘knock down’ evidence – but taken with the ease with which the Familist scare passed and the continuing employment of known Familists in the Royal Household, it is certainly suggestive.

Marsh’s study has been well received in the academic community and from it I can only conclude that here are rather strong reasons for thinking that Elizabeth protected the Familists, there are good reasons for considering them Universalists – at least in germinal form; and all of this adds to my contention that there are sufficient grounds for thinking Elizabeth already had Universalist sympathies and that this lead to her willingness to rubber stamp the Abrogation of the 42nd Article in the previous decade.

Does that make good sense?

All the best

Dick

Makes sense so far. :smiley:

By all means, keep it up.

I’m following too Dick. All makes sense so far :slight_smile:

Thanks for your support and long suffering my friends.

I have just done a post on the supplementary thread which should be of interest to you. It contains interesting, relevant, additional material on the 42nd Article, on Anne Boleyn, and on Erasmus.

All good wishes

Dick :slight_smile:

It is high time I moved on to the final stage of this part and scrutinised the evidence concerning the Elizabethan persecution of Anabaptists, Unitarians, Catholics and Separatists to weigh whether or not this affects any notion of Elizabeth I as a Universalist sympathiser. However, just one last pause – and I thank you for your patience here. Slovenly man that I am, I have just found my copy of Christopher Hill’s ‘World Turned Upside Down’ under a pile of papers and can now quote his passage about the Family of Love to you in full. He writes that:

‘Popular heresies in the Middle Ages had questioned the existence of hell, or conversely had queried the justness of an omnipotent God who created millions of men and women in order to torment them eternally. The 1552 Articles of the Church of England condemned the belief that hell was only temporary, and that all men would be saved at last. (This article was dropped in 1562.) The Family of love believed that heaven and hell are in the world among us; the Family of the Mount that heaven is when we laugh, hell when we are in pain or sorrow. Queen Elizabeth in 1585 went out of her way to denounce those who said there was no hell but a torment of conscience (his source given in a footnote is ‘Sir J.E. Neale – Elizabeth and her Parliaments 1584 1601’). A shoemaker of Sherborne in 1593 quoted men in his locality…who said that hell was poverty in this world’.

(Christopher Hill, ‘The World Turned Upside Down’, Chapter 8 – ‘Sin and Hell’, p.175

I can look at this in more detail on the supplementary thread later if necessary. For the moment I note the following:
The 42nd Article is not numbered – which leaves matters a bit vague. I note that the abrogation of the Article is mentioned in brackets as an afterthought. The rhetorical emphasis here is to sideline the abrogation.

No context is given to the Family of Love’s beliefs about Hell. The suggestion is that they were a ‘popular heresy’ of the common people when Marsh has since proved that many Familists actually belonged to the gentry. (Marsh mentions Christopher Hill three times in his study of the Family in the context of Hill’s book – ‘From Lollards to Levellers’ – in which Hill places the Family in a lineage of popular revolt couched in religious language. March shows that Hill was in error of course, but to be fair to Hill, Marsh had access to sources not available to him – but I wonder if Hill would have been able to see the disparity even if he had seen the new evidence that has come to light. And note – give the rhetorical sequence of this paragraph how the Family’s beliefs are implicitly contrasted with the oppressive 42nd Article (but this had already been abrogated when the writings of Niclaes were first circulated secretly in England)

Regarding ‘The Family of the Mount’ who argued that ‘heaven is when we laugh, hell when we are in pain or sorrow’ and the men from Sherborne who said that ‘hell was poverty in this world’ several things strike my suspicious mind.

First there is no reason to connect the Family of the Mount with the Family of Love – unless they were a rural community of Familists who had misunderstood the teachings of Niclaes.

Second, the statement from the Shoemaker of Sherborne is obviously taken from the minutes of a sitting of a Church Court of Investigation – possibly convened by godly Calvinists -and therefore should be treated with suspicion. Did the shoemaker have any scores to settle with his neighbours over land disputes etc.

Third, during anxious times in Elizabeth’s reign many works were printed denouncing the Family and the Anabaptists as a widespread contagion - a sort of fifth column hell bent on the destruction of social order. And the majority of these tracts, tomes and broadsheets were penned by furious Calvinists. There is no evidence that such a fifth column existed. Marsh gives the numbers of good law abiding Familists in Elizabeth’s reign as no more than two hundred. The Anabaptist apart from the unfortunate congregations of Dutch refugees persecuted in 1575, appear hardly to have existed in England at all during these times. People accused of Familism or Anabaptism often appear to have been simple illiterate people with an inadequate grasp of the complexities of Christian doctrine when presented as rational proofs rather than as mystery. To my mind the Elizabethan Calvinists emphasis on literate understanding of doctrine during this period would breather like an evangelical movement today coming down hard on people who were not computer literate and therefore ‘information poor’ as a pestilence to be purged from society.

Fourth the views of hell allegedly expressed by both the Family of the Mount, and by the good men of Sherborne seem to me to be entirely in keeping with the beliefs of people who live close to the land and who have intimate experience of hunger and scarcity. Heaven and Hell mean different thing to different people, depending on their experience of life. The peasants in the medieval times dreamed of a Paradise named ‘The Land of Cockaigne’ where sausages grew from trees and pies grew on the roofs of houses, the earth was fruitful and brought forth a rich yield with ease, and laughter and merriment reigned. (Peter Brueghel, the Dutch Familist, satirises this in some of his paintings – look for pies on rooftops). This idea seems perfectly understandable to me and remained part of popular imagination in early modern Europe.

Fifth – the quotation from Elizabeth’s address to Parliament is given completely without context and, again, no attempt is made to tease out the paradox that if she did mean these words at face value, how does this square with the fact that she was the monarch who rubber stamped the abrogation of the 42nd Article. As you will know, my understanding of her words, given that they are addressed to Calvinist, severe ECT believing MPs, and they concern the Calvinist practice of un-programmed sermons or ‘Prophesyings’, it seems natural to take them as ironic and possibly as a rebuke over the Calvinist furore concerning the Family of Love.

So that’s Christopher Hill dealt with!!! (although I would still recommend his book since it contains many fruitful ideas and intriguing sources – but it needs to be read with a wholesome suspicion obviously, in my view).

The classical Marxist view is that all ideas and cultural forms are simply expressions of the struggle for the material means of production in a given society (between competing groups). So religion is looked upon as an ‘epiphenomena’ – that is as something that contains no real objective or transcendent truth, but is merely ‘ideology’ – the disguised propaganda of class interests. Neo-Marxists argue that this is too crude a picture – that some ideas and cultural forms cannot be simply traced back to material circumstances; rather they have a sort of ‘relative autonomy’ – and much ink has been spilt on what this might mean, if it means anything very precise -and I think Hill may have been open to this view. However, classical Marxists have argued that once you admit the possibility of ideas having ‘relative autonomy’ Marxism loses its deterministic base and dies the death of a thousand cuts. I think there is much truth in this.

I hope that the last bit made some sense – if not, do ignore it). I think it is certainly true that where we belong in the social scale will affect our perception of our beliefs – but it does not over determine them or completely abolish any transcendence and objectivity from them. So to end I’ll give some relevant examples of my thesis for tonight.

Matthew Parker, as seems very probable, was a hopeful Universalist. He believed in the all embracing love of God – but was still something of a progressive social conservative and his studies in the History of the English Church in Saxon times had a partly conservative purpose - to emphasise continuities of the Elizabethan Church with the Saxon Church -and partly progressive – to emphasise a tradition of English Catholic independence from Rome.

The Family of Love, as seems almost certain, were Universalist Christians in germinal form. They were recruited mainly from the gentry and emphasised peaceful compliance with the powers that be – but were still horrified at the violent course of the Reformation.

Dr. John Everard – who I mentioned elsewhere – was the Anglican Rector of St Martin’s in the Field during the reign of James I. I have no idea whether or not he was a Universalist – but his manner of understanding the faith tends in that direction. He was from the city professional classes and, it seems, no social revolutionary. However, he loved the poor and when he became aware of the teachings of the Anabaptist Spirituals spoke up against the forensic externalists of the Church by writing – ‘If you are always licking on the letter of the Word, it is no marvel you are such starvelings.’ He was often called on to justify himself before the Bishop of London but was never defrocked – and this says something about the scope of Anglican tolerance even at this early date.

Gerard Winstanley, a well educated and highly intelligent man (I think?) of the artisan class, founded the first full blooded, out in the open Universalist sect in England during the Civil War known as the Diggers/True Levellers. I need to give a little bit of background to the Diggers. Since Elizabeth’s times – and perhaps even earlier – the Common Lands given to the ordinary people by ancient charters to herd their cattle and grow their own food on – were being enclosed, the beneficiaries being mainly the emergent gentry landowning middle classes. This lead to dislocation and starvation amongst the poor who were then punished harshly for ‘vagabondage’ (that is, for becoming itinerant beggars). That some of this happened under Elizabeth just goes to show that even if she had Universalist sympathies it does not follow that her sympathies were also always universal in scope (but which of us can cast the first stone in this respect?). At the brief point of maximum freedom during Cromwell’s protectorate – after he had curbed the powers of the Presbyterians – Winstanley collected a group of God’s poor and founded a community on St George’s Hill (note the symbolism of St Georges’ Hill – he was reclaiming the sacred heart of England for the oppressed, by reclaiming the common land taken away by enclosure ). The Diggers held all goods in common – but in the light of the Munster debacle Winstanley took care not to pronounce that all wives should also be held in common (and besides , he was egalitarian in his views about men and women). The Diggers wore no swords, and came in peace. They worked the land together and hoped for a time when all would join them and the earth would bring forth its millennial yield as all’ stood up for Glory’ and ‘Christ rose in Sons and Daughters’. So Winstanley basically conflated the teachings of the Anabaptist Spiritual with a radical form of Christian anarchism. Like Matthew Parker, he was also interested in English history to give justification for his beliefs and those of his community. However the focus of his reading of Saxon History was different from Parkers – as we would expect. Winstanley centred on the idea – which is not without foundation - that the Saxon Kings of England had been more liberal in their attitude towards the poor and more protective of their rights than the Norman oppressors who supplanted them (and the Normans had inspired subsequent regimes of monarchy, more than the Saxons). The ‘myth’ of Saxon freedoms – which contains some truth - was overlaid with the old Lollard idea of the Garden of Eden as the place of which the question could be posed, ‘When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the Gentleman?’ ( in other words there were no masters/gentlemen in Eden; class distinctions were a result for the Fall). The Digger community did not last for long. The landowners harassed their peaceful settlement and repeatedly cut down and burnt their crops. Winstanley later became a Quaker – the Quakers were far better organised and therefore more able to sustain testing times.

So all of my gallery of characters and groups above were Universalists in some sense, and all were generous and loving in their motivations . However, depending on social position and historical circumstances their universal concern manifested itself differently: that’s my case and I’m sticking to it.
Are you still with me Paul?

All the best

Dick

That I am. :smiley: