What do you mean by ‘intentional’ - are you hedging your bets with such strange qualification?
Are you saying that it’s ‘unintentional’ that there’s no condemnation in Christ and oddles of condemnation and wrath in the Father? That’s what your eschatology forces you to believe. But enough of the ‘now but not yet’ nonsense. Frankly, you’re confused.
Anyway, the Father was propitiated in regards to HIS JUSTICE. He was the one who justly angered, not us. How can He justly resurrect mankind if something had not have happened to assuage that JUST anger? Hint: it wasn’t because you turned over a new leaf, you can’t control the universe like that - except in your novels.
How on earth you think Christ was sent to propitiate US is breathtaking. MY JUSTICE (or, should we say, sense of justice) needs propitiating? You have to be kidding!
No, I mean a schism of intentions between the Persons. (With the Father intending to do one thing and the Son intending to do something else.)
In the sense of whether a schism between the persons is proposed to be happening intentionally or unintentionally, neither type of schism could be true if trinitarian theism is true, either. But that wasn’t quite what I meant by the phrase “intentional schism” in the quote you referenced.
Nope. I was saying (as I had said before) that if Christ intended no condemnation and the Father intended (as you put it) oodles of condemnation and wrath instead, then that would be an intentional schism (in the sense of a schism between intentions)
If that schism of intentions had itself occurred unintentionally (as might easily though ironically happen among humans), that wouldn’t make things any better; it would only be more incoherent with trinitarian theism! (Not that I’m claiming you think such a schism of their intentions happened unintentionally. I expect you think such a schism of their intentions happened quite intentionally, rather.)
Not incidentally, several of my previous remarks pointed out that, insofar as Biblical testimony goes (OT or NT) the wrath of Christ is in unity with that of the Father, inasmuch as They (as the one indivisible God) have wrath at all toward sinners. Which They do; but wrath is not in Them (or in God, singly speaking), essentially. Love is. The wrath of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in union of intention) is contingent upon the love of God (because God is essentially love, not essentially wrath), and so is an expression of the love of God to the sinner.
Which I’ve been saying numerous times before. (I wish you would oppose what I’m actually claiming, for a change. )
Once again, I’m the one being faithful to the biblical witness by incorporating it. I don’t think it’s nonsense; but if I did then I would consider that a demerit against the worth of Biblical testimony on spiritual topics. And I would get very nervous if my theology required me to just ignore its widespread and prevalent presence (on numerous though related topics) as though it didn’t exist.
Leaving aside the whole point about how the NT never uses the word that way (as you’re clearly going to leave aside), I’ve offered before for you to spell out in detail how the Father was propitiated in regards to His ‘justice’. You haven’t wanted to do that any of the times I’ve offered before; but you’re still welcome to try. (Since, after all, I’ve already pointed out in detail how even if unitarianism is true instead of trinitarianism, it must still be impossible for Christ to do that, not even counting the whole point about how this instantly introduces a schism of intentions between the Persons of the Trinity. It’s only fair for you to have opportunities to reply in detail. You’re welcome to start any time. Any time now. At all. )
Which I’ve agreed about, numerous times. (Only, I don’t limit that to the Father. Since that would be schisming the Persons again, not only distinguishing them.)
I’ve mentioned several times before that He justly resurrects both the good and the evil, the good to life eonian and the evil to eonian crisising (whatever ‘eonian’ is taken to mean). One way or another, that crisising involves punishment and the wrath of God. Unless you’re denying that He resurrects the evil? Or denying that He resurrects the evil to crisising/punishment? (I’ve asked for clarification on that before, too. And have yet to receive it.)
I think you’ve already aptly demonstrated how much you know about my novels. (Hint: even less than you do about details of scriptural testimony; which shouldn’t be surprising because there’s at least some evidence that you’ve read the scriptures here and there. Whereas you couldn’t have possibly read my novels at all, unless you got hold of one of the few pdf/doc copies of Book 2 floating around. And certainly you’ve given zero evidence of even having read the available novel. Your guesses as to the details count as negative evidence, actually. Good luck trying to find reference to the wrath of God at all in Book 1, for example!)
But I have never once claimed that we have to repent before God will love us instead of be angry at us. Try to keep in mind: I’m not the one who keeps stating that God (much less God’s wrath or God’s justice) needs propitiating! That means I don’t consider my repentance to propitiate God either. In fact I have bluntly stated (more than once, yet again) that no sinner could propitiate God, by repenting of his sin or otherwise, if God did in fact have to be propitiated.
Yeah, that whole ‘reading scripture’ thing is hard for some people to grasp the possibility of without losing their breath at the thought of it.
Although, to be fair, I have tried to continually point out that the actual data in the NT is the reverse of the typical religious expectation. So, yeah, the surprise is understandable. But that doesn’t change the data.
I notice you didn’t quote me as saying that our justice (or our sense of justice) needs propitiating. But if I “continue to say just that” then it ought to be easy to find where I just keep on saying that our justice is what needs propitiating.
Right?
The closest I’ve ever come to that, that I can recall offhand, is an early mention in the prior thread that Christ’s death serves among other things as a forensic demonstration to us that God does in fact fulfill justice by suffering injustice along with the innocent. Along with a parenthetical notice that one of the uses of ‘propitiation’ in the NT seems to have that demonstration in view as well. But I explicitly denied that this was the main purpose, much less the sole purpose, of the sacrifice of Christ; and even insofar as it was one purpose at all, the sense of justice it is intended to fulfill in us comes from God’s own justice to start with–not ours in origination, as though we are the ethical standard.
So no, “our justice” is not what God is propitiating; not surprisingly, that never comes up in the NT references, either. Nor, for that matter, does God’s justice comes up as an object of propitiation in the NT refs!–though if one or the other ‘justice’ had to be propitiated, I agree it would be God’s, not ours.
What I have constantly and routinely pointed out is the object of propitiation (per se, and of atonement/reconciliation, too) in the NT, is the sinner. Personally. Not the sinner’s sense of justice, much less the sinner’s justice (period). It ought to be obvious from my initial remarks concerning the meaning of the word, first in Greek and later in Latin, that God’s “propitiation” of us involves leading us to repent of our sins and return to Him: a hugely important and wide-ranging theme in both the OT and the NT. He leads us to smile toward Him (in Greek); He leads us to incline toward Him (in Latin. In Hebrew the idiom would be that He leads us to cling to Him, by the way.) Everything I’ve written about reconciliation and propitiation, including how those terms are used in the NT, is totally consonant with that.
Again, if you’re going to oppose me, at least try to oppose what I’m actually saying and doing.
Christ didn’t suffer injustice at the hands of God but rather suffered His Justice. He became sin and suffered death precisely because that’s what divine justice decreed must happen.
What we, as men, dole out is far from divine justice. We take life, but we cannot give it back, no matter how propitiated you say we may become.
The decree now is that we will all see life again - not because we have stopped sinning (only a fool would brag of such a thing) but because divine justice has been fulfilled. The decree and the law itself nailed to the cross. Reducing that to a ‘forensic demonstration’ is to completely miss the point.
Christ actually bore the sins of the world upon Himself. And God put them there to confirm the divinity of the Law and His Justice and by that confirmation propitiated God’s justice, reconciled Him to us and thus saves us from death - we will be resurrected; whereas, we couldn’t have been while bearing our own judiciously decreed sin. We would have remained dead forever had Christ not taken our penalty upon Himself.
So I ask myself why you don’t believe any of that. And why you think that Christ failed to propitiate the Divine Justice - and having failed you must pick up the slack to propitiate a still Wrath-filled God - a work, I think, that begins in unbelief.
The answer I see is that you have allowed your eschatology to divine the Gospel - when it should be the other way around.
Since I didn’t specifically say there what I’ve specifically said many numerous times elsewhere, that the injustice Christ suffers is our unjust treatment of God, I’ll give you a pass on this one. But I agree, that God does not suffer God’s injustice (which would be ridiculous); and I never meant to imply otherwise.
Insofar as God (both Father and Son) voluntarily sets up His suffering of our injustice, though, I might actually agree in that way that Christ “suffers injustice at the hands of God”. But only in the very qualified way I just described, which I would utterly distinguish from suffering God’s injustice.
For that matter: insofar as God’s positive Justice (capital ‘J’ ) always acts toward the fulfillment of fair-togetherness between persons, and God (as Christ) volunteers to suffer for sake of God’s Justice being fulfilled in us, I would even agree that Christ suffered God’s Justice. I’m a little iffy about whether I would go so far as to say that Christ suffered at the hands of God’s Justice, but I might even agree with something extremely particular along that line.
I can even agree that God suffered death because God in His Justice decreed that that’s what must happen!
I can’t agree that God literally became sin (or even became a sinner) in order for all this to happen; but figuratively I can accept various things along that line (and have spoken myself at some length in various places about it).
Merry Christmas!
If I was someone who didn’t accept the deity of Christ personally (only at most that God the Father was living in the man, Christ), I might be able to accept that Christ (the not-God man) became sin. But: I’ve also pointed out at length, that if that happened, or if Christ (unitarian or trinitarian either one) was only punished by the Father as if He was a sinner (which I’ve also stated at length that I can and do accept at least one notion of), then exactly in proportion to that it would be impossible for Christ (per se) to propitiate the Father in any way! Because, as I recall agreeing strenuously with you yourself before in the past, no sinner can propitiate God.
P(roposition) 1: No sinner can propitiate God.
P2: Christ either becomes a sinner or is treated as one by the God the Father for all practical purposes.
C(conclusion) 1: Christ, having become a sinner or being treated as a sinner by God the Father for all practical purposes, cannot propitiate God. (from P1, P2.)
P3: God the Father (but not the Son?!?) needs propitiating. And/or His justice does. And/or His wrath. Whatever.
C2: God the Father (and/or His justice, and/or His wrath) remains unpropitiated by the Son. (from C1, P3)
Q.E.D.
Fortunately, I deny that God the Father (and the Son, and the Holy Spirit) need propitiating before they will save us from sin, have mercy on us, love us, etc. That denial follows as a logical corollary from ortho-trin theism (if ortho-trin is true); and I’m an ortho-trin theist, instead of being a pagan or some other kind of theist. It also happens to comport very well with at least NT scripture.
(In hindsight, allow me to ask: where is my eschatology in priority anywhere in this? Hint: nowhere. )
Claiming that all I’ve done is reduce it to a forensic demonstration (when I explicitly have affirmed numerous times that the sacrifice of God on the cross is more than a forensic demonstration–including in the comment to which you were supposed to be replying), also completely misses the point.
I actually totally agree with that. Though apparently not the way you mean it.
Put our sins on Christ? Or “the decree and the law nailed to the cross”? I could agree either way.
I might could agree with that. Though I’m leery talking about the divinity of the Law per se. (The Logos, the rational action of God, and foundation of all creation, yes; the Spirit Who gives the Law, yes. The law itself? Depends on how closely the term is being identified with the Logos/Memra/Word of God, Who is God Himself.)
As the NT docs never say anywhere (that I can find so far); saying something radically different instead.
Ditto. As described at exhaustive length and detail already. But never really discussed by you yet.
That, however, I can agree with.
You could just ask me; and read why I don’t believe some key parts of that; and discuss what I’ve actually written in detail. I wrote and submitted, for discussion, two whole commentaries on the NT usage of “propitiate” and “atone/reconcile”, you know. Or maybe you don’t know that I did?!
If you somehow haven’t heard about that: here’s a link to the commentary on the NT usage of “propitiate”, if you actually and truly want to get some idea of why I exegetically reject some of what you just wrote. The link to my commentary on the NT use of “atone/reconcile” is near the beginning of the first comment.
I certainly invite you to discuss the actual data there anytime. That’s why I submitted it: for consideration and discussion. You did in fact discuss the actual data there a little bit already; but not much, so you may not remember doing so.
(And yes, I’m being ironic that you would ask yourself why I don’t believe Christ propitiated and/or atoned God, in a thread I set up specifically to consider and discuss the actual New Testament data on the use of those terms.)
I don’t think He failed to; because I don’t think the divine justice needed propitiating per se.
I could ask myself why, after God-only-knows-how-many-hours-and-pages-of-writing-from-me, you think I have ever once claimed that I am supposed to propitiate God (when in fact I have repeatedly claimed that not only does God not need propitiating but that no sinner could propitiate Him if He did.)
But I would rather ask you why you think I have ever once said that. And I would rather ask you why you have never noticed me explicitly distinguishing between repentance of sin and propitiation of God.
I doubt I am going to get much of an answer, though. sigh.
(You may not agree that there is a real distinction between repenting of sin–which we are constantly exhorted to do in scripture, by the way, OT and NT both–and propitiating God. But disagreeing with my distinctions there is NOT even remotely the same as me claiming that we have to propitiate God with our repentance.)
In order to consolidate topics somewhat better, I’m going to port an extended discussion on propitiation from another thread back to this one.
This comment from RanRan, in that other thread, begins at least a little to address the question I asked at the end of my most recent comment here in this thread. I’ve linked there for reference purposes; but I’m going to try to port over all the relevant material (before and after that comment) to this thread now.
I’m going to try to just port the relevant comments here to this comment. Readers may check back through the link above, to ensure I pulled everything I should have ported (and to add more from that thread as you see fit for sake of addressing the propitiation topic.)
The comment of mine that Ran is originally quoting from below, can be found in its totality here in that other thread.
My (rather amused and ironic) reply concerning all the supposed “sales” of my “books” can be found toward the end of this comment in that thread, by the way.
The comment from Bob Wilson that Ran is replying to below, can be found originally here.
It seems probable that Ran was including my prior comments in that thread, when he wrote this next–but whether he meant that or not, I think it’s still important to include in order to provide the fullest exposition from Ran on his position, for consideration:
My reply to the charge of emotionalism was:
This reply from Ran (to a comment by Denver which can be found here), looks very relevant, too:
(Note: Ran’s rhetorical spitting was addressed in the other thread, and he’s been doing better about that since then. I’m only porting over what he wrote at the time; so please don’t hold this language against him here.)
Relatedly, from a reply to John in that thread:
(Note: by context, Ran was ironically asking “Isn’t there anything special about Christ?”–the idea being that people here, apparently including me, are trying to reduce or even usurp Christ’s unique importance, substituting ourselves for that unique importance instead.)
My brief reply to Ran on this (until I had the time and energy to do more), was:
In reply to that:
Ran and Jim went on to have a discussion after this, which for the sake of its own importance (and possible continuance by one or both of them in this thread), I will present in the next comment.
As noted at the end of my previous summary, Jim and Ran continued on with a branch of the conversation, which seems relevant enough here in this thread; so I’m going to copy it over here, too.
Ran has not yet (specifically) answered Jim’s questions about what he thinks concerning John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8. (He may do so in this thread, or he may consider them sufficiently answered already in principle.)
I find this statement rather curious. If you are equating being born again with the resurrection, then it automatically brings up a problematic observation in my mind.
In Nicodemus’ engagement with Jesus, he brings up the question of returning to one’s mother’s womb to be reborn. The point I wish to make here is that none of us had any control of our being born, it just happened (as an act of God, if you will). Likewise, Ran, you seem to be saying that none of us have any control of being born again (resurrected), it will just happen (as an act of God, if you will).
The problem I see here is that there are essentially two resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the wicked (as hinted at in Daniel 12:2). But if resurrected equates to being born again, then why would there be a distinction, particuarly of something we have no control over. If Christ’s sacrifice is universal, then we all ought to be resurrected to eternal life, and not ‘shame and everlasting contempt’. Seems to me there is a behavioral factor at work here. Perhaps you can explain?
It’s more than hinted at elsewhere, too; including in the Gospels. (It’s blatantly obvious in RevJohn, but Ran doesn’t seem to accept the canonicity of RevJohn.)
I’ve asked Ran to comment on this before. So far, he has either refused to answer; hasn’t seen/remembered me asking; or has simply asserted (not in conjunction with my observations and questions on this) that everyone will be resurrected to eternal life and no one to any kind of wrath of God at all.
(To be fair, in some relatively recent comments he seems to allow that it may take God some time to transform us during the resurrection; though again, he hasn’t yet taken that position in answer to my own inquiries on the topic.)
So, catching-up time for this thread! (Whew, 13 pages worth.)
While there are (obviously) a lot of things I could (and will) reply to, I think I’m going to begin with this one toward the end; because I think it gets closer to the heart of your problems with what I’m saying. So I’ll comment on this first, and try to work in replies to other comments of yours afterward.
First, I will repeat again as I’ve done before: I DO NOT CLAIM GOD IS “FULL OF” WRATH AND ANGER AT SINNERS!!!
Hopefully if I put it in all caps and place lots of exclamation points after it, you’ll have an easier time remembering that this is not my position. I can make the font larger, too, and use multicolors, and underline it and bold it, if you think that will help you remember it instead.
I have very constantly denied that God is “full of” wrath and anger at sinners. I have explained in detail, more than once, why I deny that. My denial is utterly connected with the precepts of orthodox trinitarian theism; which is why I have always and consistently denied this. I know you have been at least temporarily aware that I deny this, because elsewhere you have thrown yourself off the horse on the other side by painting me as though I’m asserting that God was only kidding about ever being angry or something like that.
You’re the one who has been claiming that God was ever “full of” wrath and anger against sinners–and isn’t anymore, thanks to Jesus (as if the Son was not in fact in substantial unity with the Father and so was not Himself just as “full of” wrath and anger against sinners. Despite the repeated textual testimony, as I’ve pointed out numerous times, that the Son is just as angry against sinners as the Father–no more and no less.)
I don’t accept the all or nothing dichotomy: that God either is “full of” anger and wrath toward sinners, or else has no anger and wrath at all toward sinners.
I will repeat again (and again and again and again and again, as I’ve already repeated numerous times): if you’re going to oppose what I believe, PLEASE bother to oppose what I actually believe instead of what I don’t believe.
If you think it’s nonsense for God to act in anger toward impenitent sinners without God being “full of” anger and wrath toward sinners: fine. Oppose that. Because that is actually my position. God being “full of” anger and wrath IS NOT MY POSITION AND NEVER ONCE HAS BEEN MY POSITION!
It’s important to get my position right, because my actual position is that God is loving sinners even when sometimes He has to act in wrath against them. I don’t dichotomize back and forth between God loving a person and God acting in wrath toward a person. And I’m not kidding or being facetious or even trying to be patronizing, when I say that I understand that that can be a real challenge to accept. I don’t blame people for having difficulty with it. (Unless they’re presenting themselves as being very well-versed in ortho-trin theology, in which case frankly I think they ought to know better. But most people aren’t in that category.) If you think it’s nonsense for God’s wrath against sinners to be an expression of God’s love for sinners: fine. Oppose that. Because that is my position.
There isn’t any point in my trying to answer your question of “How can you say that?”, until you succeed in understanding and acknowledging what I actually am claiming. Otherwise, you’re only opposing some phantom over there; and you’ll only keep opposing this or that phantom instead of what I actually believe, even if I try to answer your question.
But, repairing your questions to better fit what I actually believe and what I have actually been claiming:
That was what you should have written, because that would have been a complaint which was accurate to what I’ve been claiming.
And my answers will be what I have always been claiming, too:
1.) I don’t believe attitudes or concepts or action qualities can be propitiated at all. (Nor atoned either.) People are propitiated and atoned. I think it’s simply a category error, in several ways, to propose that God’s anger or justice (or love, for that matter) even can be (much moreso needs to be) atoned or propitiated. I similarly think it’s a category error (though in fewer ways perhaps) to propose that some attitude or concept of ours even can be propitiated or atoned.
2.) I don’t believe God needs propitiating at all. He already loves us and gives Himself for our sake. No one needs to propitiate Him before He will do that. No one needs to propitiate Him into doing that. Ditto atoning.
3.) I don’t consider God’s love and God’s wrath to be mutually exclusive operations. I am not primarily concerned with being saved ‘from God’s wrath’; I am primarily concerned with being saved from sin (my sin and other people’s). I understand God’s wrath to be aimed, as a particular expression of His love, at that goal, for the sake of the sinner.
4.) While I affirm the distinction of the Persons of the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit, too), I deny their substantial disunity. Consequently, I deny that the Father was angry at us but the Son was not; and I deny that the Son was changing the attitude of the Father toward us. Either one of those would involve the Son being in schism and opposition to the Father, thus being in rebellion against the Father. If I believe orthodox trinitarian theism to be true, which I do, I cannot coherently propose such things while still also affirming ortho-trin to be true.
5.) I believe we need atonement to God and propitiation to God, insofar as, in continuing to be sinners, we are not and cannot be at-one with God yet, we are not yet reconciled completely with God, and we are not inclining toward God yet.
6.) I believe God reconciles (atones) us; and even that God propitiates us, so that we will love Him and look favorably on Him and incline toward Him.
7.) Insofar as our responsibility of repentance goes, we cooperate with God in atoning ourselves to God and propitiating ourselves toward God. I deny that this is primarily our responsibility or authority; I deny that this could be done without God’s empowerment; I deny that this could be done without God’s intention that we do it; I deny that this can be done apart from God in any shape, form or fashion. I strenuously deny that we can do this and so somehow earn our salvation from anything (so that God then consequently has to pay us our salvation or whatever). And I certainly and absolutely deny that we atone and/or propitiate God. Frankly, I don’t even much like putting it in terms of us reconciling ourselves to God; I would rather put it the way St. Paul exhorts, that we be reconciled to God. But I do have to recognize our own responsibility in that action, too.
8.) All of which, as I have pointed out at great length, is consistent with scriptural testimony. We sinners are the object of reconciliation/atonement and of propitiation. God (in all Persons) is the doer of the action of reconciliation and of propitiation; He reconciles and even propitiates us. It is not our justice nor our anger that He reconciles and propitiates but us ourselves personally. It is because of our sinning that we require this from God, thus it can be said that He propitiates “for our sins” or “for our sinning”. But He’s still the doer of the action, and we are still the receiver. At the same time, our own cooperative responsibility in the fulfillment of the reconciliation is constantly attested to and even emphasized throughout scripture–even though the scriptures emphasize even more strongly God’s authoritative, responsible and active priority in this common union (or communion), upon which even our own responsibility (as derivative creatures) depends. From God’s perspective the reconciliation is already complete: not only does He see the final success, which is as real to Him in His eternality as our current condition is, but He already does maximally everything for us that He Himself can do. In another way, though, our reconciliation is also not already complete, insofar as we still sin; and insofar as we insist on continuing to sin, He will in fact do wrath to us. (But not because He is “full of” wrath! What He is full of, is what He essentially is, which is love.) The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all Three Persons are in cooperation in regard to all this, both in their action and in their intention. That includes the wrath of the Son and the Holy Spirit personally against sin and against sinners (insofar as sinners insist on holding to their sins). That was true before the cross, and it continues to be true after the cross. There has been no change in God in regard to any of that. Insofar as there is consequently a change in us (including in our knowledge and understanding), we now can be bold in approaching the throne and the holy of holies, following our Great High Priest. Yet until we understand this, especially by means of the cross, we are actually better off, in some limited ways, keeping our distance from God, so as not to sin presumptively in our attempts to approach Him: by trying to presumptively propitiate Him, for example. But that doesn’t mean God is keeping His distance from us, even though He may hide Himself in punishment (or any other purpose) for a time; for He is not far from any of us at any time, whether we see Him or not, whether we understand Him or not, whether we believe He exists or not.
Now, you can either accept what I believe (for whatever reasons), or you can oppose what I believe (for whatever reasons); or you can forget what I actually believe, or ignore what I actually believe, and go oppose something else other than what I actually believe. And what I don’t believe may be well worth opposing (or well worth opposing, too!)
But opposing what I don’t believe and treating that as what I do believe, is worse than worthless in any discussion. If you can’t (for whatever reason) oppose what I actually believe, yet you just really feel a burning need to oppose what I don’t believe (which I can hardly blame you for, I guess ) then go find someone else who believes whatever it is that I don’t believe that you need to oppose–and oppose them on that instead.
Or, oppose what I actually believe. Or, step aside and let someone else take a shot at opposing what I actually believe (or even go find someone to do so), if you aren’t up to opposing what I actually believe (but don’t want to accept it yet, either).
But please, for the love of God if not for charity and fairness to me, please stop opposing what I don’t believe while treating what I don’t believe (and especially what I have constantly denied and opposed myself) as what I do believe instead. Please. It isn’t like you haven’t has vast opportunities to work on doing this, after all.
So for example:
Which I don’t believe, have never said I believed, have never logically implied, and which I have constantly denied. You might as well start that paragraph over again, because everything after this point is aimed at someone else, not me.
Similarly, I can demonstrate at great length that my faith does not “begin with the position” (awkward or otherwise) “of believing that God is angry at the sinner.” My faith, in the sense of a system of belief, doesn’t even reach the topic of God’s wrath against sin and the sinner, until many many other things are first developed (most important of which being my acknowledgment that God is essentially love)–whether I’m going the exegetical route, or whether I’m going the route of pure metaphysics. And my faith, in the sense either of my trust in God or my loyalty to God, absolutely does not begin with believing that God is angry at sinners. (It would be an outright category error to suppose so, either way. But I expect you only meant faith as a system of belief.) You might as well try again, because you’re aiming at someone else, not me.
“Guts the cross of any meaning”? I obviously recognize numerous meanings and actions occuring on, by and through the cross; which are entirely related to my faith (in all three senses described above); and which I am entirely able to list at length (as you’re already well aware by this point); and which I easily and gratefully appreciate. (Meaning I’m hardly grasping at straws, trying to put meaning on what has been stripped of meaning.) Aiming at someone else, not me.
“Nothing happened there to change the situation”? I have constantly said that what happened there is meant to (and eventually will) change us. Changing us, changes the situation–just like changing God on the cross would change the situation (as you seem to understand well enough). I do deny that the cross changed God in any way. I don’t deny that the cross changes the situation. Aiming at someone else, not me.
“God is still angry and now really angry”? Even your own explication of the fall of Jerusalem has involved God still being angry and now being really angry after the cross–otherwise you wouldn’t treat my constant appeal to blatantly obvious scriptural testimony concerning the continuing anger of God (including Christ) against sin, as not being applicable after the fall of Jerusalem. However, I don’t have anything like the same intrinsically hopeless notion of God’s anger (per se) as you do, such that someone has to change God’s anger in order to be saved from God and His anger. On the surface you’re opposing something I believe there (and the Hebraist, and every other author of the NT, as well as Jesus by report), but since I don’t qualify God’s anger as being mutually exclusive to the object of His love, your aim still ends up being at someone else, not me.
“Changing the truth and God Himself”? Not only do I constantly deny that sinners (or anyone else) change God, by faith or by repentance or any other way, I don’t even believe God needs changing in regard to us. Aiming at someone else, not me.
“God has forgiven mankind, whether His forgiveness is believed or not”? But I have constantly said God does forgive and has forgiven mankind. You may believe it is ridiculous or inconsistent for me to believe and to claim (and to show by testimony from the scriptures!) that God in one (and the most important) way has forgiven mankind while also claiming that in another way (in regard to whatever we insistently continue sinning) God has not yet completed forgiving mankind. But that is not the same as believing God simply has not forgiven mankind–which is the sort of position your opposition is currently aimed at. A both/and position cannot be opposed by pretending the proponent doesn’t believe one of the positions he robustly asserts; no moreso than unitarians can oppose orthodox trinitarians by affirming the humanity of Christ and pretending we don’t also affirm that. As usual, you’re aimed at someone else, not me.
“But I continue to see the error repeated that it is one’s faith or repentance that earns forgiveness and resurrection”? You may see that among other people, and you may imagine (through willfulness or ineptitude, despite everything I’ve said) that you see me doing that error; but you’re still aiming at someone else, not me.
Never claimed our anger at Him needed propitiating, including in the quote you referenced. Aiming at someone else, not me.
Wasn’t denying that. Was affirming (along with the scriptures, including along with Jesus by report) that without repentance there is no forgiveness. The affirmation of the latter is not a denial of the former. Aiming at someone else, not me.
It’s extremely amusing that you bounce from this, to my argument continuing to have a God “filled with wrath” etc. I would say “Make up my mind!” ; but considering how often you are completely wrong about my positions, I think I’ll stick to what I consistently claim on this and other topics, thanks. Meanwhile, definitely aiming at someone else, who thinks God is too nice (and/or never meant) to punish people in wrath, including with death; not aiming at me.
This is in reply to a huge list of “thingies” that I affirm God was enacting (and thereby also testifying to) on the cross. But I’m not the one reducing those actions to mere ‘examples’ (much less to supreme inaction) by God. And I expect that Muslims would generally reject my affirmations of God enacting anything (or even only an example) on the cross; much moreso the “thingies” (as you put it) that I affirmed God was doing, not only there on the cross, but eternally. (Try and think BIG, Ran. ) At least this time there’s some clue who you were aiming at, not me!
This is after I affirm that God suffers on the cross with the innocent when they are unjustly treated (i.e. that He bears the results of the sins of the world); and after I affirm that God suffers on the cross along with the guilty when they are justly punished (i.e. that He bears the results of the sins of the world in this way, too). I have also affirmed elsewhere that God bears the sins of the world on the cross; and that, in the Son, God in essence strikes Himself (by having ultimate authority in His own crucifixion). I have also affirmed more than once that God bears responsibility for the sins of the world! Perhaps you don’t agree God does any of those; and I’m pretty sure you think that something more is required in order to bear the sins of the world than being stricken for and by and with the sins of the world and being stricken by Himself for our sake. But I think this constitutes Christ actually bearing (and paying for) the sins of the world. So I am not, in fact, continuing to talk as if He didn’t do so. Aiming at someone else, not me.
At last!! You manage to actually accurately identify a position of mine! (Though you neglected to mention the “God” part.) Yep, I have to agree: I believe God wasn’t actually guilty of any sin, and wasn’t justly punished as a sinner with death, whether by other sinners or by Himself. Most theists, including most trinitarians, don’t actually think God was actually guilty of any sin, though; even when (as I do) we affirm that God on the cross is taking ultimate responsibility for our sins and paying for our sins. Nor do I think Christ ever stated in a mission statement anywhere that God (the Father, the Holy Spirit, or the Son) is or was guilty of any sin, much moreso that God would be justly punished therefore (by God or by anyone else; by death or by any other punishment). I am glad you got this position of mine correct. You are welcome to oppose it as much as you want. Good luck with that!
I affirm all those points. The fact that I don’t quite mean what you mean by them, doesn’t mean I don’t affirm all those points. Back to aiming at someone else, not me.
Definitely aiming at someone else, not me.
This was right before quoting where I went infinitely beyond mere temporal sequence in affirming the uniqueness of God’s sacrifice on the cross; and right after making reference to a large number of purposes for the cross, some of which would be rejected by various theologians for going far too far.
This doesn’t even rise to the error of aiming at someone else! It’s only hugely ironically amusing.
This was in reply to my statement that God’s sacrifice on the Christ (which by the way I consider to be the first and the last and the living sacrifice–going very far beyond being only ‘the last sacrifice’ per se, though I agree with that, too, in a merely temporal sense) is unique because of Who and What He uniquely is. You may disagree about that; and/or you may disagree about me going on to deny that the sacrifice is uniquely new in itself. But redefining terms so that “is” means “is not”, is (as I think someone once said) the oldest trick in the book. Also, my affirmation of the uniqueness of Christ’s sacrifice necessarily includes the affirmation that God, in sacrificing Himself (including on the cross), did and does something that I can’t do (for myself or for anyone else–because I am not uniquely God acting in a fashion uniquely possible only to God because of Who and What He uniquely is). At best, you’re aiming at someone else, not me.
Whereas I explicity and repeatedly said that the purpose of the crucifixion was God’s supreme enaction of what He is always doing and accomplishing (and changing, too) in regard to sinners (though not in regard to Himself). You obviously disagree about that, and that’s fine; but to imagine that by this I mean the purpose of the cross constitutes, in any primary way, an appeal to an emotional response, is aiming at someone else again, not me. (To be fair, you were in fact replying to someone else, in a thread which involved people giving their beliefs on the topic of the purpose of the cross, not only my reply. So you may not in fact have had my reply in mind. But considering how wildly off-base you tend to be in relating to my position, I thought I’d mention this, too, just in case. )
I certainly wouldn’t and never have considered men to have positively accomplished anything in nailing the Word Himself to the cross (but rather that we sin against God by doing so); and I have always stressed that God had the final and ultimate authority in being nailed Himself to the cross. And insofar as the Law and its ordinances against man were also (figuratively and spiritually) nailed to the cross, I certainly affirm God did that, not man. Aimed at someone else, not me. (But see previous parenthetical disclaimer in your favor, perhaps, above: you may not have actually been thinking of me and my claims there.)
I don’t think we or anyone else atone God at all; and thus I don’t think we have anything to add to such an atonement either. I think God atones us, and expects us to cooperate with that, and so in a derivative and subordinate way (subordinate to God and derivative from God) I am willing to claim that we have something to add (our repentance) to the atonement of us. (Just as scriptural authors agree, OT or NT either one, including Jesus by report.) I don’t consider such repentance to be a reason for my hope of salvation, though; and I don’t consider my hope of salvation to reside with something I ever did. Overall, then, you’re still aiming at someone else, not me. (But ditto prior parenthetical disclaimer in your favor.)
You may not agree with some or all of the huge list of actions I believe occurred on the cross; but calling those enactions inactions is purely and simply and willfully ignoring whatever you don’t want to hear and pretending something else instead. True, I (and the NT authors) believe there was no atonement of God (as the object of atonement) on the cross. But that hardly amounts to supreme inaction of God, especially when many other actions of God on the cross can be listed. Aimed at someone else (who actually believes in supreme inaction of God, if anyone does–a nominal or minimal deist, or maybe some types of cosmological dualist), not me.
Yep, I believe God is unchanged in His justice (!!!thank God!!!); a change which the blood sacrifice of the Son (also God Himself) was not even trying to accomplish. To change His justice would be for Him to enact injustice, and I deny that. So, as far as you go, in a very superficial way, you’ve got that right–though you do so at the expense of bothering to consider what I have often discussed as my belief about God’s positive fulfillment of justice, including on the cross. Also, I have never once said (despite your “so you say”, which you didn’t bother to provide a quote for–since no such quote exists) that God is filled with wrath, then now or later. Aimed at someone else, not me.
I don’t believe we can or do propitiate Christ at all; I don’t believe we can (per se) turn away God’s wrath; and I don’t believe in the least that Christ’s sacrifice is superfluous. Aimed at someone else, not me.
Piffle. If anyone in the forum adminstration wanted to just silence you, you wouldn’t be allowed to post anything, period. You would simply be banned, and maybe all evidence of your involvement here balefired out of existence; end of story. Instead, the most we’ve done (so far as I know) has been to repeatedly ask you to play nicely; and to warn you; and then finally to edit out a couple of words (and to let you know we did so) on one post, when you refused to abide by the forum rules. We’re far more likely to be blamed for giving you an inch and allowing you to run a mile. (Such as calling people unethical names; much moreso, doing so on grounds which are abundantly and demonstrably false.) Moreover, I have continually counseled leniency for you. Also, I don’t believe for a single moment that I propitiate God, and everything I have written in (especially in this particular thread on the NT use of the term ‘propitiation’) is consonant with that. Totally aimed at someone else, not me.
Your faith, such as it is, isn’t succeeding even in seeing the truth about what I believe; but is taking on the unhealthy function of (at best) changing the truth about me.
So: is your faith likely to be more or to be less accurate in regard to seeing and accepting the truth about God?
I looked in Youngs and it said “fallen short” also…or something very similar… I love how you put it about all are wanting of the glory of God. Can you tell me how you got that?
A fine question; and one I would have had to spend much more time on originally (in the middle of an already lengthy set of entries on a somewhat different topic). So I’m glad Debbie has come back to it!
(The post in this thread, that Debbie is asking about, can be found here, by the way.)
The term at Rom 3:23 is {hustereo_}, or more precisely it’s the plural middle voice cognate of that verb: {husterountai}. We would say “all are x-ing”. (And for ease of reference I’ll afterward just tack an English suffix onto it, usually. If anyone wants, I can produce the actual Greek suffix instead for any example.)
The word isn’t used very often in the NT, actually. But when it is, it’s almost indisputably referring to wanting something–and not just casually wanting something either, nor simply lacking something, but desperately lacking something, enough so that the person lacking it might be expected to panic. (It’s the same word we get ‘hysteria’ from, too.) It’s a crying need, like starvation (which is the usual literal or analogical meaning being appealed to).
So, the prodigal son in Luke 15:14 begins to be in hustero after he has spent all his money right before a severe famine hits the country he’s living in. He’s in such dire need that he joins himself to one of its citizens, a man who sends him out into the fields to feed hogs. (That verb ‘joins’ is probably a euphamism for the other unclean thing that would have disgusted Jews most. In order to eat, this formerly proud and disdainful man, who has demanded his father’s death-inheritance and wasted it on prostitutes, is most likely prostituting himself.) He isn’t simply not achieving a standard or goal.
Luke 22:35 has Jesus reminding the disciples (before leaving for Gethsemene) that when He sent them out earlier on missionary work they did not hustero for anything, did they? (No they didn’t. But now He recommends they arm themselves. Sadly, they most likely think this means the armed rebellion is about to kick off!–even though He has been trying to warn them otherwise. ) Back when they were on mission, they weren’t simply not achieving a standard or goal for anything.
John 2:3; when the wedding part is hustering wine, they aren’t simply not achieving a standard or goal for having it. They’ve run flat out, which culturally speaking could be considered a disastrous sign for the wedding (and will surely bring great shame on both the master of the house and the chief steward in charge of the wedding party.)
Mark 12:13; the moral of the incident of the widow’s mites, is that she gives more than all the others, “For they all cast out of their superfluity, yet she, out of her hustereo, casts all, as much as she had–all her livelihood.” She is hardly falling short by doing so!–nor is she doing so out of her falling short. She is doing so despite her crying poverty, giving all of what little she has.
1 Cor 1:7; Paul says that the Corinthians are not hustering in any grace. This can hardly mean that they themselves are not falling short of any grace, though; first, because Paul is about to talk at length concerning ways in which they themselves are falling short of being gracious; and second, because in the immediately preceding context Paul is “always thanking my God concerning you, over (or about) the grace of God which is being given you in Christ, for in everything are you enriched in Him… so that you are not hustering in any grace.” They are not hustering in any grace, because God in Christ is giving them all His grace–for which Paul is thankful. The context must mean that they are not wanting or rather lacking grace.
1 Cor 8:8; Paul says that those who don’t eat meat sacrificed to idols will not be in hustereo. He can hardly be trying to reassure his readers that those who don’t eat that meat will not be falling short of a goal or standard, since the whole point of this section is that eating meat sacrificed to idols is actually okay unless one thinks it is still sinful, therefore those who understand their freedom to do so shouldn’t push that freedom on those who are still ‘weak’ about it (because that would actually be tantamount to seducing them into sin!) i.e., the ones refusing to eat the meat already think they are thereby meeting the goal or standard. Paul’s point is not to affirm that they’re not falling short, but rather that our food habits per se do not give us a standing with God, and that the two factional sides shouldn’t worry about each other. Those who eat (like St. Paul) are not cloyed (i.e. are not getting too much, “superabounding”), and those who don’t eat will not be hustereo: they are not (by context) putting themselves in a dangerous lack. They don’t need that meat to survive. (Apparently some of the ones eating the sacrificed meat were worried that they were getting more than their brothers and out of charity’s sake were wanting to force their dissenting brothers to share in the bounty. But Paul’s argument is that, until the weaker believers actually learn better, it actually would be a sin for them to eat the meat.)
2 Cor 11:9; Paul’s hustereon is being met by brethren coming from Macedonia. He isn’t trying to get anything for his hustereon from the Corinthian congregation, for whom Paul is actually raiding other congregations in order to ration food to them! No commenter thinks this means anything other than that Paul isn’t appealing to the Corinth church to supply him, but rather that he is trying to meet their needs while not encumbering them with his own. (The contextual usage goes back to 11:5 and on to 12:11, too.)
Phil 4:12; back in verse 11, Paul stresses that they shouldn’t interpret what he just said (in verse 10) as a hint from him that he has a want, “for I learned to be content in what I am. I am aware (what it is) to be humbled as well as aware (what it is) to be superabounding. In all and among all am I initiated, to be satisfied as well as to be hungering, to be superabounding as well as to be hustering.” It’s blatantly obvious here (and in vv.14-20) that Paul isn’t talking about falling short of a goal or standard.
Heb 11:37; the faithful prophets and heroes of the OT wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, in hustereo, mistreated (being stoned, sawn, and murdered by the sword). No one ever supposed that this means these mighty ones of the faith fell short of a goal or standard. (Doubtless, that happened, too–much of the Hebraist’s argument elsewhere is about how the great Hebrew spiritual mediators necessarily fall short of Christ. But that clearly isn’t his rhetorical point here. He only means they were starving with a crying lack of something, and were willing to do so for the sake of a better promise.)
Now to consider some possible counter-examples of usage:
The rich young ruler is described (in Mark 10:21 and Matt 19:20) as hustering in one thing. In GosMatt he asks, “In what am I still hustereon?” This could by metaphor mean “falling short” of a standard or goal (keeping the commandments), especially in the case of GosMatt where he may be asking “in what am I still deficient?” But the larger context doesn’t seem to be primarily about his attempt at simply meeting a standard and failing; he seems in genuine desperation, and Jesus looks upon him and loves him when He declares that the young man is still hustering in one thing.
Heb 12:15; this might be one place where the context might suggest hustereo means “to fall short”: the phrase is similar to that of Rom 3:23, “so that no one is hustering of the grace of God”, and there is shortly afterward a warning by comparison with Esau who, for one meal, gave up his own birthright and is afterward rejected. However, the full admonition for verses 14 and 15 is: “Pursue peace with all, and holiness, apart from which no one shall be seeing the Lord; supervising so that no one is hustering of the grace of God, nor any root of bitterness, sprouting up, may be annoying you and through this the majority may be defiled.” The exhortation is that those in charge of supervising do their duty in providing the grace of God so that no one is hungering for it; the parallel with Esau actually reinforces the point, since it was for the sake of his hunger that he rebelled against his own birthright.
1 Cor 12:24; in talking about how the disreputable or dishonorable or disrespectable parts of our body turn out to be necessary and even invested with more exceeding honor, Paul talks about how the respectable parts of our body have no need (meaning no need of honor) but that God blends our body together giving to those parts which are hustering more exceeding honor, that there will be no schism in the body but so that all the body’s members may be solicitous to one another. While by analogy this might be talking about how the disrespectable members of the congregation have fallen short and so God gives them more honor, the obvious grammatical contextual comparison is one of need: the ones which are lacking the honor need that honor, which God supplies to them.
Heb 4:1; this is one case where the surrounding context probably does allow the notion of falling short of a goal–since the surrounding context is precisely about some evangelized people (the ancient Hebrews) falling short of entering into God’s sabbath due to their stubbornness of heart. (Which in verse 7 is clarified as being their hardening of their hearts, the idea being that if they ever hear His voice today, “you should not be hardening your hearts!”) “We may be afraid, then,” says the Hebraist, “lest at some time, a promise being left of entering into His stopping, any one of you may be seeming to be hustereo.” Wanting, needing, lacking, being deficient–by context this is in fact falling short. But it is falling short because we are not in fact deficient. We may be seeming to be deficient, but that is our fault, not God’s; God has supplied for us. (Specifically, God supplies us, and them, the evangel: “For we have been evangelized, even as those also.”) In effect we are abusing His grace (a chief concern of the Hebraist here and elsewhere) whenever we sin and especially when we persistently insist on sinning. It is not that we are lacking His grace. It is not even that we are wanting His grace; the point is precisely that, in a couple of different ways, we don’t want His grace!–we may prefer our sins!
Being sinners, we are wanting His grace as an internal need which must be supplied and without which we cannot survive; God gives us that grace fully and freely (in fact He was giving it already, or we wouldn’t even be capable of sinning); when we sin we abuse that grace, as though God has never bothered to teach us better. But He did, and He provided.
So, how should Rom 3:23 be translated and interpreted? All sin (Jew and Gentile both, by Paul’s context), and all are hustering of the glory of God. Yet a righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, into all, and on all the ones who are believing, is being manifested (apart from the Law, though attested to by the Law and the Prophets). Why on all? Because there is no distinction: all have sinned, and all are hustering of the glory of God. (Everyone agrees the phrase is “of the glory of God”, of course.) And all (by grammatic context, as explained in the commentary) are being justified gratuitously in His grace through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus toward the display of His righteousness in the current era, into Him: to be just, and a Justifier of the one who is out of (or from) the faith of Jesus.
It is of course entirely true that when we sin we try to place ourselves on par with God (and even over-against God!); and of course we cannot succeed in that ambition; so of course we fall short of having the glory of God. It isn’t that this translation and interpretation is a bad or false one.
But the word most often refers to a desperate need for something. Because we actually lack the grace of God? No, but we are given it by God because we desperately need it. And that is obviously what the surrounding context is about: God giving His grace gratuitously through His glory–through His shekinah Who is Christ Jesus. The context (both immediately, and more largely all through this half of Romans) isn’t about us falling short of attaining competitive Godhood (true though that must always be), but about God giving that grace to everyone because everyone, Jew and Gentile both, cryingly (even hysterically) need it.
And in case it isn’t apparent (though it ought to be blatantly apparent), the grammar of propitiation and atonement in the New Testament utterly fits this notion of salvation by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to us: God saves us, atones us, even propitiates us (bringing us laughter in Greek; causing us to lean toward Him, as it was eventually translated in the Vulgate from which we get the term ‘propitiate’). The action is God’s; we, the sinners, are the receiver of the action.
Because we need it.
And God (Father and Son in union–and the Holy Spirit, too! ) meets our need gratuitously.
Even shockingly so. For God’s grace does run opposite to our natural expectation: which is that the deity hates us and so someone must make peace with Him first before He will be at one with us, before He will smile on us, before He will deign to lean in our direction. But God isn’t the problem. We sinners are the problem, going away from God.
Fortunately, God goes out after even the 100th sheep; not needing to be convinced to do so first (by some other lesser god or some other equal God or whatever. )
I would humbly suggest to everyone, however, to have a read of Romans Chapter 14 - I’d be very interested in people’s response to it in the light of some of the ways this particular debate has raged .
Honestly, it is the doctrine of our propitiation by God, which I myself would think is the strongest argument for no forthcoming punishment of anyone by God (by means of the light of a final revelation which no rational will would willingly deny, as Mr. Hawtin believes, along with several others on our forum)–were it not for very much scriptural evidence against the notion that God will simply reveal Himself someday and by that means bring all persons willingly into the fold.
But there is that to factor into the account as well (in a total exegesis); and I think that scriptural expectation is founded on a realistic clarity concerning the propensity for willful self-deception. The Biblical picture, overall, is not about those who are currently blind by no choice of their own and who only need sufficient light to gratefully receive–though there is quite a bit said along that line, too (and thank God for that)–but about those who kick against the goads (meaning Christ was working on a resisting Saul before the Damascus road experience), and those who stuff up their ears and squint shut their eyes so that they will not repent and be saved, and those who refuse to come into the light but prefer the darkness because they love fondling their sins. It is far from impossible (as I can testify from personal and self-critical experience) for a single person to exhibit both kinds of blindness. And the overall picture also anticipates this, insofar as on one hand our inclinations to sin are an inherited curse (from which we may be simply healed) yet we are also personally responsible for our sins: which requires real repentance on our part, not only healing.
I do think then that the total picture, though still ultimately hopeful of God’s success in salvation (and still promising such an outcome), is still more complex–I would say more realistically complex–than Mr. Hawtin presents it as being.
Having said that, I wish to quote something from his presentation that I am not sure I emphasized enough myself, though I do believe it:
I think what I did emphasize was the faith of Jesus Christ–which has to be faith in His Father, surely not in us–but I neglected to emphasize (or even mention, really) the faith of the Father in the Son and in the success of the Son’s self-sacrifice for our sake (which synchs up Rom 3 beautifully with Col 1.) Mr. Hawtin also makes a fine point connecting this to God’s propitiation of us, by consideration of the immediately following verses (which I think I also neglected, though I recall meaning to write on their connection as I’ve used it before elsewhere), where clearly it is the faithfulness of God in view explicitly compared to the faithlessness of all sinners: does our faithlessness abrogate the faith of God? May it never be!!
As to Rom 14: actually, I have noted several times before (including recently in this thread, while commenting on a parallel passage in 1 Cor!) that it is better not to force (or even to induce) someone to accept something they believe to be sinfully wrong, because even if they are technically incorrect they will be acting against the best light they can see at the time and so will in fact be sinning to do so. Meaning we will be even more guilty as their seducers!
Which I have in fact put into play several times in regard to Ran, Jeff. Much of my most recent reply to him was even predicated on this notion: I want him to oppose me where he thinks I am wrong; and not so that I will have someone to crusade against, nor even primarily so that I can correct him, but because (to paraphrase how I put it back much earlier) I thoroughly believe it’s important for people to oppose what they believe to be logically and especially ethically wrong and so be faithful to the truth thereby even if it’s me they are opposing by doing so.
I think, though, I have some right not only to point out, but also to complain, when the opponent has had vast opportunities to do better, where the opponent continually aims somewhere else other than what I am believing and claiming, while purporting to be opposing what I am claiming (and to be opposing me personally, as “a viper” for example). When someone persistently misidentifies what I believe despite numerous clear corrections, and along the way blames me for having a “faith” that changes facts around, then the self-refuting irony has become too complete. And it is time to call attention to it.
But that doesn’t change what I’ve said in favor of Ran’s opposition. I am only appealing to his own standard, so that eventually he might at least oppose what I actually believe instead of what I do not believe.
First I just want to say that I am in fundamental agreement with most everything Jason has said on this thread, and that I’ve found his commentary quite edifying. I don’t believe God has ever been in need of propitiation; we are the ones who need to be “pacified” and “appeased,” and it is for this reason that Christ was sent by the Father. Christ’s death on the cross was the ultimate expression of God’s benevolent, forgiving disposition toward mankind, and crowned his divinely-appointed mission of revealing to us the paternal heart of God. When we properly understand the meaning and implications of Christ’s death on our behalf, we will hear God telling us and all the world: “I have always loved and been reconciled to you; I will always be your Father, and you will always be my children, no matter how far you may stray from my love.” And it is as the only one who fully reveals the heart of God that Christ is said to be the paraclete in 1 John 2:1. Christ was not sent to represent us to God, but to represent God to us. He calls to us to see God for who he really is, and to joyfully submit to him out of filial love.
Having said that, allow me to switch gears and attempt to address a problem raised by Dondi in response to something RanRan wrote. Dondi said:
While I am not in agreement with RanRan’s equating the new birth with the resurrection, I think we are both in agreement that the resurrection is an unconditionally bestowed blessing, and that the state into which we are resurrected is in no way determined by our conduct prior to death. What then of Daniel 12:2? Well, I understand it essentially the same way as I understand Christ’s words in John 5:27-29 (Daniel 12:2).
Incidentally, I will be moving along to comment on various eschatological threads soon, Aaron. End of the year busy-ness at work (and start-of-the-year busy-ness), along with some other factors, has delayed me in finishing catching up with everything but those eschatological threads! I have plans to do so this weekend, though, and have been greatly looking forward to doing so for some time.
(Including especially various discussions on the resurrection of the evil to eonian crisis instead of to life eonian. )
I like it, and I think it gets the gist across very well!
But of course if I’m going to comment on the NT usage of a term I have to build the interpretation from the actual term used. Your suggestion makes sense in context of the term and its usage, but that context still has to be established first by examination of the term.
With relation to “The New Testament Usage of ‘Propitiate’”, I say that the New Testament doesn’t use the word at all. Only particular translations use it. I see the word as having an entirely different meaning. I have posted below a part of a booklet I wrote entitled “The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.” Some of you may be interested.
[size=150]Chapter Two
The Means of Mercy[/size]
The Substitutionary Theory of Atonement
Is “the atonement” the supreme sacrifice offered to appease an angry God, a means of covering our sin so that God who is holy and cannot tolerate sin does not see our sins but Christ’s righteousness? Was Christ a substitute for us who took upon Himself the punishment which we deserve, so that we won’t have to go to hell? Is the atonement the means by which to get to heaven in spite of our sinful human natures, in spite of our tendency to go on sinning throughout this brief span of life lived in a fallen world? Is this the plan and purpose of God — to justify taking a few to heaven by the “atoning work” of His Son, whether or not they live more righteously even though more than 99% of people will be sent into eternal retribution? Are these ideas consistent with the divine attributes of the Creator of the Universe? How can His love and His justice be reconciled to this concept of the atonement?
The notion of the death of Christ being a means of appeasing a just God has led to the concept of Christ offered to God as our substitute, so that we would not have to take the punishment we deserve, eternal hell, but Jesus, the infinite God was able to take that infinite punishment on Himself in a finite period of time. There are some questions we might ask the proponents of this theory. Does the atonement, cover us all automatically, or is there something we must do to appropriate it? Most who espouse the theory hold that there is indeed something we must do, although there is no “work” which we can do that will help us at all. Subscribers to this theory define “works” to be “good deeds which we have done in hopes that they will in some way make up for our wrongdoing, and balance the scale of justice in our favour”. Eph 2:8 is usually quoted at this point:
*For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast. KJV *
The verse immediately following is seldom quoted. That verse reads,
*For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. KJV *
There is some variation in opinion as to what we actually must do to appropriate the “covering” so that we can get to heaven in spite of our sin, but there a common thread seems to run through the teaching as to what we must do. Usually it is taught that we must first recognize a number of facts:
What follows are the supposed facts:
We are indeed sinners.
Christ has died in our place.
We need to be saved (This is understood as the necessity of being saved from hell).
We are helpless to save ourselves.
We can be saved only by grace (This is understood to be the unmerited favour of God).
Now having recognized these facts, what we must do is :
Call upon Jesus to save us by His grace or in virtue of His shed blood.
and/or
Believe (or trust) in the finished work of Christ to save us.
If we have done one or both of these two things, we are considered to be “justified” ( a word understood to mean “just as if I’d never sinned”, and saved from hell, for “God said it; I believe it; that settles it.”
In teaching this way to be saved, usually repentance is not mentioned at all, but if it is, it is thought to mean “feeling sorry for our sin” and then being ready to “accept Christ” as our “personal Saviour”. “Accepting Christ” seems to mean recognizing Christ’s “atoning work” and calling upon Him for salvation from hell.
Imagine two men, Jack, and Chris. Both have lived selfish, useless lives. Each has lived as a drunkard, as a thief, and as an adulterer. Each has continued in that way of life until death. Both appear before God to be assigned to their destiny.
God says, “Jack, I see by the records that on October 12, 1984, you accepted my son Jesus as your personal Saviour. Okay, you’re covered. I’m not mad at you anymore. You can go to heaven forever. Chris, I cannot find any record of your having accepted Jesus as your Saviour. I am utterly enraged at you. To hell with you forever!”
Most people would see in this scenario the action of a unfair and unloving God. But many who subscribe to the substitutionary theory of atonement seems to have no difficulty whatever! He says that God’s words to Jack demonstrates His love and mercy, and His words to Chris demonstrates His justice. How astonishing — that God is considered to exhibit two contradictory characteristics, love towards the less than 1% of mankind who “accept Christ as their personal Saviour” to whom He extends His mercy, but hate toward over 99% of humanity to whom he wreaks his vengeance through His judgment of everlasting torment! Useless torment --— with no purpose other than causing pain and suffering forever!
The reality of the matter is what God has revealed. In this booklet, it is my purpose to show what is found in the Bible concerning Christ’s sacrifice and its purpose.
At this point I want to emphasize that the substitutionary theory of atonement is just that — a theory of atonement. Any reputable theology text book will present several other theories on the subject. But the substitutionary theory has so permeated every aspect of Christian teaching today that it is difficult for us to conceive of the sacrifice of Christ in any other way. Was Christ’s sacrifice a way of appeasing a God who was angry about sin? Does Christ’s death meet some “legal demand” which requires the death of a sinless person? Is God “satisfied” with the excruciating death of His sinless Son? How does the death of an innocent victim “satisfy” God’s justice? Is God bound by the spiritual legalities which He Himself has established?
In considering the various elements of the substitutionary theory let’s first look at the “sacrifice” aspect. Does the living God require sacrifices to appease His wrath? Someone will say, “Oh no. Not any more. Christ was the supreme sacrifice to God. But under the old covenant He required them.” Do we find that idea in the Bible? What good do they do Him? Is it not the heathen religions of the world that try to appease their gods with sacrifice, try to keep them from getting angry, try to avoid their wrath? Does the Creator of the Universe require this kind of appeasement? How did He feel about the Israelites trying to appease Him in this way? Through Isaiah, Yahweh spoke, calling the people “rulers of Sodom” and “people of Gomorrah”
Isaiah 1:10-20 Hear the word of Yahweh, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah!
“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says Yahweh; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he‑goats. When you come to appear before me, who requires of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them. When you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.” “Come now, let us reason together,” says Yahweh: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword; for the mouth of Yahweh has spoken.
As always, Yahweh, the great Creator, wanted righteousness. He wanted the Israelites to clean themselves from their evil ways. He wanted them to learn to do good, and He gave concrete of examples of what that meant. He wanted obedience from them.
But some claim that in this passage, it was not sacrifices per se with which Yahweh was displeased. It was sacrifices offered in unrighteousness. But no evidence of this can be given. It makes equally good sense to say that Yahweh did not want sacrifice at all, but a cleansing of their evil ways.
A well-known passage from Psalm 40 confirms the latter view:
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart. Psalm 40:6-8
Obviously the speaker is a worker of righteousness. He delights to do the will of God, which is written in his heart. Yet, God does not desire sacrifice and mean offering from him.4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Indeed, according to Hebrews 10, the speaker is Christ Himself!
Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, *"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure”. Hebrews 10:5-6
*
So clearly, God does not require sacrifices, but righteousness.
What does the word “atonement” mean?
In the King James Version of the New Testament, the word “atonement” occurs only once.
*Ro 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. *
But even in that instance, it ought not to be so translated! The Greek word καταλλαγη from which it is translated means not “atonement” but “reconciliation”. The previous verse reads:
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Oddly enough, the King James translators rendered the verbal form of καταλλαγη
as “reconciled” in verse 10! Why not the nominal form as “reconciliation” in verse 11? Oh the wonders of translation! It is only in the sense that ἰλαστηριον has been mistranslated “atonement” that we can correctly affirm that the breakdown “at-one-ment” expresses the meaning of “atonement.”
The Revised Standard Version and other modern versions are consistent in their translation of these verses:
*Romans 5:10,11
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation. *
It is wonderful to be reconciled to God! We can indeed rejoice that this has been made possible through our Lord Jesus Christ, through His precious blood, through His death on our behalf!
The Greek Words ἰλασμος (hilasmos) and ἰλαστηριον (hilastārion)
The words used in the Greek New Testament and rendered as “atonement” or “atoning sacrifice in some modern translations are ἰλασμος(1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10) and ἰλαστηριον Rom 3:25, Heb 9:5). Both are derived from the verbal form ἰλασκομαι. The Hebrew word translated as “atonement” is “kippur” and is usually rendered as ἐξιλαστηριον in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures, translated about 250 B.C. in the reign of Ptolemy. Note that it differs from the New Testament word only by the addition of the prefix ἐξ. The verbal form of the Hebrew word“kippur” is “kaphar”.
In the King James Version, ἰλασμος is translated as “propitiation”, that is, an appeasement or conciliation of an offended power. It is so translated also by Darby, in the Douay, in the KJV, and in Young’s Literal Translation. The translators of the Revised Standard Version render ἰλασμος as “expiation”, that is, the act of making amends of reparation for wrongdoing. This is also the meaning of the English word “atonement.” In current English, “atone” is used in precisely the same way as “expiate.” If I accidentally run into the neighbour’s fence post and break it off, the neighbour may tell me, “You’re going to have to atone for that!” In other words, I’m going to have to “make up for it” in some way, perhaps by repairing the fence myself. In the NIV and the NRSV ἰλασμος is translated as “atoning sacrifice.”
The translators of the KJV and the Douay also render ἰλαστηριον as “propitiation” in Rom 3:25, and in the RSV it is translated as “expiation.” However in Heb 9:5, the translators of the KJV render the same word as “mercy seat”! It is so rendered also in Darby, and in the RSV, the NRSV, and Young’s Literal Translation. Mercy seat! The meaning is quite different from either “propitiation” or “expiation.”
Perhaps a look at the verbal form of the words would be helpful in deciding the true meaning of the words ἰλασμος and ἰλαστηριον:
** ἰλασκομαι [Strong’s 2433]** Lu 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ RSV
In this parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, every translation of which I am aware translates iJlaskomai as “be merciful”. ἰλασκομαι is derived from the adjectival form ἰλεως, the meaning of which is “merciful”, and is so translated in Hebrews 8:12:
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more. RSV
Curiously, the RSV translators render the word differently in Heb 2:17:
Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. RSV*
Does consistency demand that the final phrase be translated as “to be merciful concerning the sins of the people”? If the verbal form means “be merciful” and the adjectival form means “merciful”, could the nominal forms be rendered as “means of mercy”? Let’s see how the verses would read if that were done:
ἰλασμος [Strong’s 2434]
1Jo 2:2 and he is the means of mercy concerning our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the means of mercy concerning our sins.
ἰλαστηριον [Strong’s 2435]
*Ro 3:25 whom God put forward as a means of mercy by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;
Heb 9:5 above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. *
We can leave the translation in Heb 9:5 as “mercy seat,” though under Mosaic law it was indeed considered a “means of mercy.” One may confidently affirm that the translations which render ἰλαστηριον and ἰλασμος as “propitiation”, a word which carries the idea of appeasement and averting of wrath are not correct. Our examination of the passages quoted above would cast doubt even upon the translation of these words as “expiation” or “atonement”. I suggest “means of mercy” as an appropriate translation of these words, a translation that is correct etymologically as well as contextually. What a mercy the grace of Christ, that divine enablement! This enablement is described in Titus 2:11, 12:
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and pious lives in this world.
O gracious Yahweh! Through your son Jesus, and the words with which you have inspired your apostles, help us to understand more fully the means of mercy through the Anointed One, by which you have made available to us the process of salvation from sin. May this understanding help us to more fully appreciate your love and grace, to be better prepared, through your enabling grace, to show others the way to enter the door of salvation, to become your children, and thus to press on toward completion, to be conformed to the image of your son, and to be among the many brothers and sisters of the resurrection, of whom Jesus is the first born.
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(Hint: even less than you do about details of scriptural testimony; which shouldn’t be surprising because there’s at least some evidence that you’ve read the scriptures here and there. Whereas you couldn’t have possibly read my novels at all, unless you got hold of one of the few pdf/doc copies of Book 2 floating around. And certainly you’ve given zero evidence of even having read the available novel. Your guesses as to the details count as negative evidence, actually. Good luck trying to find reference to the wrath of God at all in Book 1, for example!)
) then go find someone else who believes whatever it is that I don’t believe that you need to oppose–and oppose them on that instead.
Good luck with that!
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