I hope so Sherman. 
We can interpret Revelation in many different ways, but I do like Sherman’s image of it being art. (I can relate to that.) When I work on a painting, I don’t do one little corner and finish it before moving on to the next thing on the right. I work all over the painting. Now here, now there, now somewhere else. And when I look at a painting I see the whole thing at once before I begin examining the parts, the hidden treasures, etc. There’s no sequence of events and yet a masterful painting will have a bit of history, maybe some foreshadowing, stuff that speaks of connections with things perhaps outside the world of the painting, etc. It’s all there at once. Revelation is like that.
I think that’s why John proclaims a blessing on those who HEAR it. I’d heard this before, but only years later did I listen to Revelation well-read one day while I was using my exercise machine. It was amazing. All the parts . . . I don’t know . . . but somehow listening to it like that, completely focused on just experiencing it, I got a picture in my heart of the magnificent Savior and Lord who is coming to claim US as His own. Truly, what a blessing. Don’t try to understand it; it’s meant to be experienced.
No doubt those to whom John wrote were able to instantly pick up on all the symbolism because it was current and relevant to them. Revelation is an inside story and a map without a legend to us (unlike to John’s original readers), but we can still appreciate the beauty of his masterpiece portrait of Jesus.
Hmmm Catherine, I’m befuddled HOW you’ve drawn that conclusion from what I’ve said?? The truth couldn’t be further from that. As I understand it there is NO END to this world… this life populates the next into perpetuity, period. And as for “full reconciliation” – this HAS ALREADY been fully established by Christ in his removal of sin’s LIABILITY on behalf of humanity… Jesus “put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” once for all.
What may occur in terms of “judgment” beyond this life can only seen (according to the scriptures) in relation to “rewards” or the potential loss thereof.
Yes Cindy, I see what you’re saying.
Davo, apologies if I’ve misunderstood your position. 
So going by your last comments, is this world (physical universe) going to improve to the point where there is no more sin in the world and no more physical death, tears, suffering? 
Not to my understanding. Man’s ability to err (sin) while no longer held to his charge by God because Jesus bore fully the LIABILITY for sin can still has consequential outcomes in this life in need to rectification… hence James’ instructions about “the confession of sin” with regards to EACH OTHER, not God. BECAUSE God has dealt with it we can deal with it:
Jas 5:16a Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed.
As we pass on that which we have received (grace) in terms of “love thy neighbour” the world will continue to become a better place.
As for John’s… “no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, no more pain, no more curse” these had reference to the spiritual harshness of life lived under old covenant mode of existence of law righteousness i.e., their old “world”. With Jesus came the reality or “The Truth” of “the new creation” and He was “The Way” into “The Life” because He came as “The Resurrection” into it; and so these old or “former things” were to pass away.
IOW… the other-worldly sense that so often gets read into these passages can readily be understood as present realities to be lived through here and now.
PS: no real problems about being misunderstood as it is the nature of forum life. 
Hi Davo, and thank you for clarifying things. Do you believe Jesus came back ‘physically’ or rather in his resurrected body, i.e. a real tangible body that can no longer die, on the third day after His death and he remained on the earth for so many days until He left this earth and went to ‘heaven’ i.e. another dimension where God is? Not that God isn’t in our dimension, as He is everywhere, but hopefully you know what I’m getting at. 
Hi Catherine,
I understand Jesus’ Coming “on the clouds” and “in the glory of His Father” Mt 16:27; 24:30] in terms of the self-same prophetic language indicative of that used in the OT where “in judgment” Yahweh Comes executing wrath on His enemies…
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. Ezek 30:3 cf Isa 13:9-10; 19:1
In the Gospels “the time of the Gentiles” was that time when God used Rome to judge renegade Israel (Ad66-70), as per the likes of Mt 23:34-38 and Lk 19:41-44 et al.
So… these things literally happened, but like Yahweh’s past judgments did NOT require nor necessitate any tangible physical Presence, though He was present in that which transpired. THAT’S what I understand the “coming” or “parousia” of the Lord to be and mean.
Thus Luke’s “in like manner” had reference to Jesus’ being “received out of their sight” ascending in the clouds to the Ancient of Days to receive dominion and glory and ultimately to execute Judgment etc, Dan 7:13-14. Acts 1:9-11 is not talking about Jesus’ physical attributes at the time… to think such is to miss the gist and meaning of the event and that which lies behind it.
Having said that… YES Jesus was literally and tangibly resurrected. I don’t however subscribe to the notion of Jesus having some supposed “glorified body” pre-ascension; the seemingly miraculous movements Jesus performed post resurrection closely emulate that which he also demonstrated pre resurrection.
I’m familiar with the ‘parousia’ being understood as not a literal ‘coming’. I accept that the destruction of Jerusalem etc was **a ** ‘coming in judgment’, as is certainly understood from verses like the ones you quoted and Jesus’ own words regarding the destruction within the life time of those he was talking to. So I go ‘so far’ with the preterist position, and it makes much sense of many things. However, there are some big issues to clarify, so if I can take one at a time so as to keep the posts not too long (I struggle to read very long posts ). Can I discuss Jesus’ resurrection a bit more?
From what you are saying, you believe Jesus was resurrected in the same manner as any human who had been resurrected before Him e.g Lazarus. Jesus’ life was restored to the same body (hence 'you will not let you holy one see decay). But you believe the ‘changing in a twinkling of an eye’ i.e the altering of a physical body to become an incorruptible body, happened at or after the ascension of Jesus back to His Father. Now this is a very radical departure from the orthodox understanding. Have you any other scriptures that support your position? One further question for now: do you believe Jesus or anyone else who has their new glorified body, will ever literally return to this physical planet? thank you.
I have what might termed a preteristic understanding or more properly it coincides with it in these areas.
There are a couple of issues to address, one is some odd notion people have inherited in imagining what a glorified body should be (so somehow Jesus Resurrection body is not yet a glorified body) and imposing this on the thinking of that period and that time. This is just a wrong way around to approach it, I think, and the first thing is to understand what the glory of God is, it isn’t blinding flashlight blinding our eyes, and we won’t need strong sunglasses to look at each other when the resurrection of the dead is completed. Glory has a number of facets, one of which is authority and of power, to be glorified is show authority and power, where authority, power, victory and praise are displayed and exercised (this meaning still sometimes comes into our use of the language, saying some in glorious, or even derisively and statistically, when someone says of someone else, the nothing but a glorified … ). So part of glory,and glorified is to have a body where power, authority is displayed in creation, in the nature of the body itself, this is essentially focusing on the distinction between mortal and corruptible body, the body of decay and humiliation, where death has obvious authority, to one that is immortal and incorruptible, one that has authority and power and is beyond death, which death has no hold over at all, and is Spirit-powered and energised, and is honourable, it is a body where life reigns and not death. It is also one that displays authority in creation, and both of these things Jesus in His Resurrection interaction displays He shows power over creation, His body is one where the dimensions of heaven and earth are united and one, He moves effortlessly between then, and is not limited by creation but exercises authority in movement and existence (He can appear through locked doors, and disappear, again He can move between the dimensions and isn’t constrained by them, He has authority over them). Also is the strangeness of the new body, behind the Gospel tradition, and the means the authors of the Gospels then puts them, lies there the hesitancy of the original eyewitnesses in trying to describe what they saw. The know it’s the Lord Jesus, and yet they aren’t sure, something is different but they can’t quite describe it, they walk on the road with Him yet don’t know it’s Him until He has revealed that the OT is about Him, it’s not a case of not recognising Him (other different language and expressions would be used) they know it’s Him, but He is different, and they can’t express in words exactly what that difference is. They did not have the language for it, and nor do we, they were observing the first part of new creation, the first immortal body and incorruptible piece of creation in existence and they didn’t have the language to describe that, a body where. That would be immortality face to face, and of course is definitely power and authority, and glory in action.
The second aspect is closely tied to the glory of God which is nothing less than power and authority in action, and of His direct Presence and action in creation (which is connected and in many respects the same thing), and means the same thing as the Kingdom of God. This was the hope of many of the Jewish people then and had for centuries, of the national forgiveness of sins (of the debt) and the return of YHVH to His people, and to His Temple, and the promises in many prophets than in this return He would just make HIs Presence in the Temple but all the earth which already manifested His glory (His creativity, His power, authority and love) but would fill it further as the waters cover the seas. It was a hope in which His people would be freed, and the pagan tyrants defeated, and world renewed and completed, were promises of new heavens and new earth came in and the renewal of all creation, and it was one where the conviction of the resurrection of the dead was central. The resurrection of the dead was for the Jews who believed in resurrection a central part of God’s return and of His glory and victory being displayed and His people vindicated, and of creation being renewed, and it was a global event, part of greater purpose (I point I’ll return to in second). And as John’s Gospel tells us, the Word by which all things are made and which will accomplish the purposes of creation goes forth and is becomes flesh, is tabernacled among us, and they beheld His glory, the glory they expected to come to the Temple, which is the return of YHVH to Israel to deliver them and bring His Kingdom has come in Jesus. And this glory is glimpsed in Signs, which culminated in the Cross where He is lifted up to draw all people to Him, so glorifying the Father, it is in the Cross He is crowned King, it is there Pilate declares of Him, ‘behold the man’ and the Genesis theme running through John’s Gospel here in Jesus does God complete the work of mading humanity, here is the One in the Image and Likeness of God, and so the true Human, and here in the moment of His self-giving love is His full humanity revealed, and therefore the glory of God revealed (as St Irenaeus would say, the glory of God is man fully alive). It is there the Roman centurion declares He is the son of God, that was a title of both the Messiah and of Caesar Augustus, and here the pagan Roman, the cruel occupier acknowledges that Jesus is the true King, He is the glorified One, not Caesar.
Then me move to the Resurrection, St Mary mistakes Him for a gardener, and it’s right mistake (as is His reference to her was the Woman, again St John is drawing attention of the first chapters of Genesis to understand what is happening) because the human project is renewed, and the union between God and man is opened, death is defeated. Because the Resurrection is not just some one-off event for just Jesus, this is the resurrection of the dead, it has began, the global event many were waiting for has happened, and God’s Kingdom has come, as St Paul say it is demonstrated in power in the Resurrection, this runs throughout his thinking in Romans, and in 1 Corinthians, dealing with mistake of Corinthians believing there was no resurrection as St Paul discusses the nature of the body to come, and of the new creation where death is is defeated and then destroyed because all are raised out and beyond death, the mortal body is clothed with immortality and so glorified, and creation renewed and released from decay and futility when the sons of God are revealed, and in 1 Corinthians 15 this is centred around the witness to Jesus and His resurrection body (of all the witnesses), as He is, and as they attest so shall we be. And this is because as St Paul makes clear in that chapter of the Epistle, the global resurrection of the dead has come, and split into to, the Messiah first, leading the way, and then His people following HIm at His appearing, the new creation had began and God’s Kingdom and Glory, and His authority and power demonstrated clearly in the Resurrection, a body were death was defeated and had no power, where heaven and earth were united and God’s power and Presence were, and where humanity is fully alive and creation free and full of the Life and Power of God, it is very much the glorified body and this is exactly where Paul is directing both the Corinthians and us to in talking about what the glorified body to be shall be like. Not that we will be shining like lightbulbs forever (which would be very inconvenient to say the least). He who is our life, is what what we shall be like at His appearing not something else. And there, it is in the resurrection, which vindicated Him as Messiah and demonstrated that the forgiveness of sins had happened and the Kingdom and Glory of God had come is what convinced St Paul and was completely central to his thinking, and it also showed the true nature of the Cross, which is the power of God, and the great demonstration of His glory, there in HIs total self-emptying and self-giving love.
The other aspect of this problem is apocalyptic language, and the tendency particularly in the last few hundred years to take this with wooden literalness sometimes, rather apocalypse is the revelation or reveal of something, where the veil to heaven is thrown open and God’s perspective on events is given (most accept this in relation to some prophets in OT and their prophetic statement in relation of Israel’s devastation by Gentile empires where descriptions of Israel being devastated by fire etc are used, except those bits some groups wants to segregate of to the future wars etc of course). And this is where these statements come in, they are part of parables in Matthew follow His entrance into Jerusalem and His symbolic cat of judgement there, clearing out the Temple and His clash with the priesthood and Pharisees, not least such things as the parable of the vineyard, and then pronounced the fall of the Temple, and here his disciples ask him when these things will happen and the end of this age and the inauguration of God’s Kingdom will happen. describing the general chaos, wars, violence and revolutionary leaders and would-be Messiah’s and Messianic movements against Rome that were constant, and would continue and in which even those who followed him might get caught up in there destructive lures or into collaborating with the Empire and the corruption of power around them, but that the appearing of the Son of Man and His Kingdom will be sudden and surprising. At this it goes on to discuss the sign of the Son of Man will be Him coming on the ‘clouds of heaven’ (and will tell the Sanhedrin that they will live to see this reality happen), and then he will send out His messengers to collect His people for one end of heaven to the other, and references them to the fig tree and reminds the disciples that this generation will not pass before it happens (and earlier that told them that some of them wouldn’t die before seeing the Kingdom of God come), but reminds that it comes at a time they don’t expect and to to be swept away into paths of destruction (being taken away was not a good thing, that was Roman soldiers taking people in communities into slavery, execution etc, read in it’s context of it’s time it’s a timely but dire warning who’s meaning the Jews knew to well and whose reality was a ever-present threat to them). The various parables that follow then explain the nature of the Kingdom when it has dawned, and how they respond to it or reject it, embracing life or death (the sheeps and goats is the most clear in this respect) though not alone. It’s important to remember that the phrase ‘coming on the clouds’ is a reference to the demonstration of YHVH’s authority (so the Psalms talk sometimes of YHVH coming on the clouds) but more specifically it references the Danielic vision where after the monsters of empires have risen out of the sea (the Israelite picture of chaos and evil, so no sea promised in Revelation) where human nature has been distorted and oppressed by these empires, there comes the ‘one like a son of man’ a human figure who rises up to the Ancient of Days and is given authority over the defeated empires, and this is exactly what goes on to happen. In the Resurrection Jesus shows the Kingdom has come in power, the resurrection of the dead has happened (which brings all the discussion earlier), and He demonstrated as Lord of the World and the Kingdom of God and forgiveness of sins has come, now in Him is all authority in heaven and earth invested and exercised through His disciples who are sent out to the world and are as Paul would call them and us God’s ambassadors announcing that gospel of the Kingdom (which in the 1st century had a specific meaning, the gospel or good news of the reign of Caesar) and was announcing the gospel or good news of the reign of Jesus, that He was Lord and Caesar or anyone else was not (so in Acts 17:7 where they declare one Jesus King contravening the laws of Caesar, and ending with Paul preaching the Kingdom of God openly with hindrance from the Empire, it is a running them through the Luke’s Gospel and Acts). And here is the focus of the Ascension, not the Lord Jesus flying off somewhere away, but rather it emphasizes that He goes to the ‘right hand of the Father’ to take His place as Lord of the World, it is the moment where He takes power (and so Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 in discussing the resurrection bodies mentions evoking the language of Psalm 2 that Jesus reign as Lord of the World (which has began with referring to the resurrection) will be completed at HIs appearing with the completion of the resurrection of the dead and the destruction of death. Whether the event involved actual perception of vertical movement or not is in some respects incidental, because it is presented specifically to evoke the Daniel image (which would bring the readers back to ‘coming on the clouds’), this is where this happens, where the ‘one like a son of man’ takes up and fulfills the human calling and takes charge over the monsters and destructive empires (remember it is an upward movement, not a downward movement, the ‘one like a son of man’ goes up to the Ancient of Days not down’). This is the moment the Kingdom of God comes and HIs Messiah is given authority over the world and the resurrection of the dead begins (this is also what the reference to being ‘on the clouds with Him’ in Thessalonians is referring to, when we are raised out beyond death in the completion of the resurrection and share His glory and authority, when the mortal is clothed with immortality).
The language then is reference to deciding to engage with the Kingdom, with Christ and the path of Life or those who would continue to engage in destructive paths, the abuses of the Temple (which was mistreating and extorting the widows and the poor), those embracing violence were choosing to remain under death’s power just as the Satan did, and that end was seen and known in Gehenna, the Valley of Himon and would only end in destruction (and this culminated in first the Jewish rebellion of AD 69-70 with all various death and violence and corruption from all sides, and the destruction of the Temple and devastation of Jerusalem and then the Bar-Kokhba rebellion of AD 132-35 where 2nd Temple Judaism ended completely and Talmudic Judaism and Christianity split and became completely separate largely) . All of these are parables describing the dynamics of the Kingdom as it is functioning now, and the heavenly perspectives of our choices to engage in His Life or not now, and are not saying anything I believe about the appearing and the completion of the resurrection of the dead and of creation, though there are implications of principles that can help understand some aspects of this reality (such as the second death).
Yes it is unorthodox… funny, I’ve heard just a few say in kind about universalism.
Hmm no. Jesus’ resurrection was unique… he alone saw “no corruption”. I could be wrong but I’m assuming all other folk resurrected in the bible summarily at some point died again; not so Jesus.
Again no… I understand Paul’s ‘changing in a twinkling of an eye’ where ‘corruption puts on incorruption’ to be speaking of the final change of covenant status where all vestiges of the old covenant world fall off – this occurred with the destruction of the Temple. This was pertinent to Jesus’ “this generation”, not us.
Jesus had said in Mk 9:1 “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.” This parallels Paul’s “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.” Some will have died but ALL will be changed in the Parousia. The resurrection controversy of 1Cor 15 was not about individual resurrection but Israel’s corporate resurrection out of the grave of the old covenant; resurrection was about covenant destiny and whether God would fulfil His covenant promise to His covenant people historic Israel.
Israel was “dead in trespasses and sins” and IF she was not resurrected, that is… redeemed (something that occurred in Jesus i.e., true Israel = the true Vine Jn 15:1; Isa 5:7; Jer 2:21; Psa 80:8-9) then the Gentiles would be all but lost because WITHOUT Israel’s resurrection the nation (gentiles) had no hope.
Paul’s “the dead” in 1Cor 15 = Israel. Paul confronted two problems in the early church… Jewish elitism aka the “Judaisers” and Gentile separatism. On the one hand certain Jews in the church were teaching law observance (circumcision) for salvation, while on the other certain gentiles were saying with their inclusion that God was done with Israel, i.e., they were forsaken. Both were wrong.
Vss 13-14, 16-17. “If the dead (Israel) do not rise, then Christ (true Israel) is not risen, then as such you (gentiles) * surely have not risen and are therefore vainly STILL stuck fast and futile in your sins*” According to Acts 26:23 Jesus was THE FIRST to rise up out of OLD COVENANT Israel. “The dead” in this verse is plural and speaks of old covenant or historic Israel. We know this is NOT referencing BIOLOGICAL resurrection because Scripture is replete with examples of others’ biological resurrections, therefor Jesus could NOT be “the first” in this regard. I might add, it is IMO a spurious and far-stretched argument that some make equating “resurrection” as stated in the bible with “resuscitation”… had that been meant that would have been stated.
Jesus was the FIRST-fruits of Israel’s covenant restoration i.e., redemptive resurrection, “the forgiveness or turning away of sins” Rom 11:26-27]. With Israel’s redemption came the world’s reconciliation.
No. As I understand it, THIS LIFE populates the next ad infinitum.
I hope that helps some though I suspect I may have confused you more. 
I’ve been discussing the ‘Lake of Fire’ with an ECTer. After reading Revelation I was feeling quite negative about the prospects for those going in to the Lake.
I take Revelation after the great white throne judgment to be generally sequential and if correct then Rev 22.17 is an offer from the Spirit and the Bride to “whosoever” to come and drink from the water of life. In this view the only folks left that the Spirit and Bride could be addressing are those in the LOF. Additionally i think there are allusions that folks can leave the LOF and enter the city such as the fact that the gates are open day and night and the LOF is a lake not an abyss so folks can walk out of a lake. Now the gates of the city being always open can be just for the citizens but then why even mention it?
Thank you Steve. This does seem a strong possibility. I hope this is the case.
Thank you NightRevan. Some interesting thoughts to ponder.
Quite so.
I just want to drill down this first point if I may. You agree that Jesus was brought back to life never to die again. This makes His resurrection different to any before Him. So if this earth is going to go on forever, then why is it a problem for Jesus and those who receive immortality, to be present on this earth, as Jesus was for 40 days after his resurrection? Many thanks.
Just technically speaking – to to us it may SEEM like forever, technically speaking it would appear that this universe will at some point in the v.e.r.y distant future come to an end, or a point of re-creation – in a big crunch as it contracts back into (ultimately) a singularity, or in a big chill as it “inflates” apart to the point where all of its planets and stars and particles are each absolutely alone, and dies of cold.
Absolutely. This planet CANNOT continue literally for ever, if the present laws of this physical universe remain unchanged. I understand the Reconciliation that Jesus is doing, and the ‘merging’ of heavenly Jerusalem to this earth- thus New Heavens and a New Earth to indicate a change of the laws that are currently ruling this material universe (e.g entropy). I believe the Bible teaches we will have new ‘physical’ bodies that cannot die (like Jesus’) and we will live here but ‘here’ will be changed. Now if that is not the case, and this planet and universe is gradually wearing out and our eternal home is actually in heaven, then that is amazing too.
I don’t see that as a “problem” per se… I just don’t see it in the bible. Jesus was raised very much back into THIS LIFE as WE know it in the here and now, he then went to the Father – in this respect his resurrection was unique. When we die our resurrection is to the Father BEYOND this life… forever with the Lord.
I understand “the new creation” in covenant terms (hence my pantelist position fits under the eschatological umbrella of “covenant eschatology”) and as such view John’s ‘new creation’ as the fulfilment of God’s promised covenant renewal ON BEHALF OF all Israel, which in turn was the catalyst to the blessing of the wider creation of mankind.
The bible NOWHERE speaks of “the end of time” – it DOES however speak of “the time of the end” which equates to “the end of days” Dan 12:4, 13. This “end” was the end of the old covenant age or “world” typified by Jerusalem and in particular her Temple.
Consider further these texts:
Gen 8:21-22 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. “While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, winter and summer, and day and night shall not cease.”
Psa 78:69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which He has established forever.
Psa 93:1 The Lord reigns, He is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established, so that it cannot be moved.
Psa 96:10 Say among the nations, “The Lord reigns; the world also is firmly established, it shall not be moved; He shall judge the peoples righteously.”
Psa 104:5 You who laid the foundations of the earth, so that it should not be moved forever.
Psa 148:4-6 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, and you waters above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the Lord, for He commanded and they were created. He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.
Ecc 1:4 One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the earth abides forever.
Eph 3:21 …unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Davo, thank you for your reply. Do you believe in universal reconciliation: that Jesus is reconciling ALL things and persons back to God and thus eliminating sin in all its forms whether in the physical realm or the spiritual realm? Acts 3:21 springs to mind: ‘’ He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything,…’’
How do you understand Acts 17:31: ‘‘For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man He has appointed…’’
The judgment against the Jews and Jerusalem in 70 A.D cannot be what Paul is referring to in Acts 17? So what is Paul referring to?
Many thanks.
So simple? It all makes me think of Dr Gordon Moyes who was the Superintendant of Wesley Mission in Sydney. I recall him speaking years ago when the controversy over the millennial question was to the fore. On being asked of his view he stated that he was a prelacterian. When asked what this view ment he explained that a prelacterian is one who puts the milk in the cup prior to pouring the tea! I have read some of the above and I think I like what Sherman wrote which was not so much an anwer as a menu. For the rest I guess what ever will be will be. I do tend to think of the LOF as a description of God in judgment who is a consuming fire but then He appeared to Moses as a non consuming fire so I guess it’s a bit in the eye of the beholder. Cheers Chris
Yes, good points Chris.