This would make Christianity a non-starter for me. If a posited deity either couldn’t or wouldn’t eventually eradicate evil and sin, then I would conclude that that deity was non-existent.
If evil and sin were to always be in this world, I would see this world as similar to the traditionalists’ Hell. The main difference being that it would be a succession of different people suffering and sinning, rather than the same group.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights.” (James 1:17)
The world’s religions contain within themselves great stores of truth. I find encouragement and edification from this. As a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, I can say with all honesty that I have not found one single bit of truth outside the Church that is not also within the Church. In other words, I never say to myself, “This thing in Buddhism (or whatever) is true. Too bad the Church doesn’t have that truth, too.” Instead, my experience is always, “Glory to God that His grace and truth extends to the Buddhists, and that He has revealed to them this truth of the Church.”
In a nutshell, the more truth I see in other religions, the more I rejoice in the Orthodox faith. 
Thanks for your thoughts Cindy and Steve. 
Geoffrey, your thoughts on this are much appreciated too.
Again; that depends upon how one defines the defeat of the last enemy, and when that occurs or occurred, in relation to perhaps when we actually see the realization of that. In my opinion, there is no such thing as a “safe” way to be sure of any such thing. Hebrews is a good place to see “already, not yet” realities in place.
IMO, the last enemy has been defeated, although we don’t see the full realization of it yet. But it is an interpretive leap to say it hasn’t been defeated yet. It could be argued that Jesus defeated it at his resurrection.
I agree, and since God is God and not a god (that the one infinite source of all that is: eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, uncreated, uncaused, perfectly transcendent of all things and for that very reason absolutely immanent to all things. He isn’t understood something posed over against the universe, alongside it or addition to it, nor is he the universe itself. He is not a being or thing the way a star, quark, a human or a god is a being the, He is not one more thing alongside all the things that are; he is not one more object in the inventory of things that are, or any discrete object at all. Instead all things that exist receive their being continuously from and in Him him, the Source of all that is, in whom all things live and move and have their being. He is not being but Being itself, the inexhaustible source of all reality, the absolute upon which the contingent is always utterly dependent, the unity and simplicity that underlies and sustains the diversity of finite and composite things. Infinite being, infinite consciousness, infinite bliss, from whom we are, by whom we know and are known, and in whom we find our only true consummation (Hart, D.B. 2013 p. 30) then it should be expected all by the very nature of existence together in Him and by Him, of consciousness, of those however broken that are beings in the image and likeness of God (though incomplete) should have truth in them, it should be so expected.
However like Israel itself before the Incarnation of Christ who is the Image of the Invisible God, and in whom the work of humanity is completed there is without Him in the centre no full understanding (and much tragic misunderstanding) as with the Scriptures, they only become Scripture when read in His light, as about Him and testifying to Him, by Him comes grace and truth. The same is true in relation to other religions and philosophies, ae rejoice were the is truth lived and love expressed and freedom found, but not to mistake it all all truth or the fullness of Truth which us Christ Himself and is expressed in the Church, in Her life, worship and witness, guided by the Holy Spirit and and founded in the Word of God that is Christ Himself, but much as Christians did in relation to pagan philosophy celebrate what is true, what is good, if there be any virtue, work with it and unite in those grounds but as the Israelites in the Exodus story took the artwork of Egypt and refashioned it to glorify God in the Ark and the Tabernacle so to with truth when it appears elsewhere, guide it into it’s true perspective in and seen through and understood in Christ and the revelation that comes through Him within the Church (the foundation and pillar of truth) as the early Christians did with Hellenic philosophy, and bring the full understanding of it through the Messiah (as Paul puts it taking every thought captive to the Messiah).
Part of the problem is many Christians now live in an understanding of reality (and therefore terms used in the NT) that is quite different and often alien to classical Christianity or the early Christians, a worldview quite different and much more dualistic, Deistic and owing more to Epicurean and Platonic ideas (and can be quite Gnostic). So it is could be that those of other views have a better understanding of reality than quite a few Christians.
I can see that the events in ‘Revelation’ may not be occurring in a chronological order, but the ‘last enemy’ : Death, or rather its defeat, is surely a safe way of determining how these events are being fulfilled. Let’s assume most of the events in Revelation were fulfilled leading up to 70 AD. But the last enemy has still not been defeated. (two other events spring to mind that have not happened yet: war has not been done away with yet Isaiah 2:4, and all the ends of the earth have not been saved yet Isaiah 45:22 i.e. the earth is still not full of the knowledge of the Lord as the sea is full of water). So there are events in Revelation that still haven’t been realised.
Yes i agree and also if death is the last enemy to be destroyed, i certainly would think “evil” is an enemy too and it has yet to go.
I think I understand what you are saying. Because Jesus has died and been resurrected etc, death has lost its sting, because we know that even though we are still going to die physically- we will not stay dead but will be resurrected to eternal life. [tag]Davo[/tag] is proposing that physical death is always going to exist i.e. a never ending cycle of humans being born who must taste evil and death in order to attain to eternal life in an immortal body. 
Absolutely. 
I guess then you’d be in full sympathy with the atheist who concludes the same, i.e., “seeing is believing”. Presuming you then came to Christianity from an initial disbelieving position, was it being convinced that evil and sin would eventually be eradicated that “Christianity” it a ‘starter’ for you?
“This world”… there’s more to LIFE than meets the eye and as I understand it this world simply populates the next ad infinitum… IOW, a reality that has run from time immemorial and will run into perpetuity.
I think it is important to note that “evil” is NOT some mysterious entity in or of itself tantamount or on par with God. Evil is simply the wicked works of man i.e., wicked and unrighteous actions usually of the gravest degree. So yeah, to the degree evil flourishes to that degree life for some will be hell, but again ONLY to the extent that the light for whatever reason isn’t dispelling it… righteous works i.e., “love thy neighbour” is that which dispels the darkness… Jesus blazed the trail calling his followers to do likewise.
This is possible only because the last Adam destroyed “the death” of the first Adam in His AD70 Parousia. “The death” Adam died “the day” he ate was SPIRITUAL DEATH aka “relational” or “covenantal” death. It was THIS DEATH that Christ’s Cross-Parousia event dealt with and destroyed.
It was NOT physical death. Physical death was ALWAYS a natural part of the created order by virtue of the fact that once man ingested food to survive biological demise (death) was at work. Not only this but the FACT that God barred man from the Tree of Life lest he “live forever” logically dictates that without such biological demise (death) was ALWAYS in play.
Again, “pain” was no different… IT was present – the entrance of sin (disobedience) heightened or increased what was ALREADY PRE FALL, like death, present.
Thanks for your reply Davo. What you say about physical death is interesting. Most/many Christians view life in Eden before the fall, as ‘perfect’ i.e. how God intended man and creation to be forever and thus the reconciliation by Jesus is restoring everything back to how it was BEFORE. But what you’ve said makes me realise this isn’t quite right. Life before the fall was not immortal in itself, it was contingent on ‘the tree of life’. So Adam and Eve were not immortal spirit beings (which is what resurrected bodies are??) It’s as if God knew we would mess up and hence why we have to be mortal first (unless a seed dies etc). I agree that pain would have been a part of life. It seems as if we need to experience pain and evil, so that we can reject evil and then we are granted immortality (once we have learned). The main bit I’m disagreeing with you on, is if this process of mortality/pain/evil leading to immortality, goes on forever. In one sense this would be good, because it would mean an infinite number of people being born (the thought of a finite number of humans has always struck me as strange in some way). You see, I can envisage this world in a much better state than what it is now: no war, no hunger, no famine, no crime etc. Does God not care about things down here to ensure that HIs will is done here as it is in heaven? 
Yes. I was raised in a very informal, non-denominational “Christianity-lite”. Our “creed”, such as it was, was basically, “Believe in God and Jesus, and be a nice person. You might want to consider reading the Good Book from time to time.” Church attendance was sporadic.
As I grew older, I saw the obvious shortcomings of this. On first glance, Christianity looked to me as merely one more tribal “ism”. “Our god can beat-up your god.”
But with study and reflection, it became clear that the Holy Trinity is the Creator and Savior of all creation. God the Son became incarnate to join Himself with His creation, with the result that our dead end detour into evil, sin, and suffering will be ended by our conquering Hero.
Thus my Christianity.
I agree with you Geoffrey that the existence of the all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God implies that evil (however defined) will eventually be eradicated from the universe. I believe in the all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God. Therefore I believe that evil will eventually be eradicated from the universe.
If Jesus is making ALL THINGS new, surely nothing will remain that will malfunction or rebel or cause evil.
Yes God does care… this is why he chose Adam to dress, till and keep the earth (land), something that given “time” was to extend beyond the walled garden. Adam was to bring light and order where there was darkness and chaos. Adam was God’s chosen emissary… this was Israel’s story, something fulfilled in the last Adam.
Because I hold to a long view of humanity I believe in cultural evolution and given “time” man will discover how better THIS LIFE can be without the likes of war, hunger, famine, crime etc. I’m also a realist and have no notion of an earthly utopia. Remember this… the bible NOWHERE speaks of “the end of time” – it DOES however speak of “the time of the end” Dan 12:4, 9 – this was THE END of the old covenant world, THE END of Mosaic Law righteous, which for John was NOW “at hand”. Rev 22:10
I’m thinking that’s what we’ll all know when stepping through death’s doorway into LIFE after life after death. Paul says as much… “For he who has died has been freed from sin.” Rom 6:7
With Church this morning, the leader (who believes in UR 
)quoted this verse:
Roman 8:19-21. ‘‘For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.’’
I believe this is saying that decay as part of the physical realm, will not always be the case. One day, when all God’s children (those transformed into the image of Jesus) are revealed, then too the rest of creation will be freed from decay?? 
Hi Catherine… what I’m sharing below IS a different reading of the text than typical evangelicalism which might mean reading it a few times to get the gist of where I’m coming from. 
From a fulfilled perspective that understands much of the “creation” language in terms of Israel (as I allude to HERE) and in particular Israel’s promised covenant renewal Jer 31:31-33; Ezek 36:26-27; 37:9-14] there comes a different reading of Paul’s Rom 8:18-23 passage.
I view Paul’s “creation” language of Romans 8 in terms of the firstfruit saints’ mission and ministry ON BEHALF OF their brethren, historic Israel; that they be “saved” from the coming wrath (Rom 10:1; 11:14). Paul and the firstfruit saints became God’s new priestly “elect” aka Paul’s “the Israel of God”; they were faithful Israel. Their ministry “in Christ” brought to fruition (Col 1:24) the redemption or “consolation” of Israel” (Lk 2:25, 38; 23:51; Mk 15:43) with the resultant and subsequent blessing of Divine reconciliation that flowed beyond to the wider creation of humanity. Understood then in these terms the following reads…
Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [exponential tribulations AD30-70] are not worthy to be compared with the glory [glorified 8:30] which shall be revealed in us [firstfruit saints]. For the earnest expectation of the creature [historic Israel] waiteth for the manifestation [election 11:5] of the sons of God [firstfruit saints – Mt 19:28]. For the creature [historic Israel] was made subject to vanity [the Law], not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope [covenant renewal], because the creature [historic Israel] itself* also** shall be delivered* [redeemed] from the bondage of corruption [the law] into the glorious liberty [grace] of the children of God [firstfruit saints]. For we know that the whole creation [all Israel] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they [historic Israel], but ourselves [firstfruit saints] also, which have the firstfruits [down payment] of the [eschatological] Spirit, even we ourselves [the firstfruit saints] groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption [deliverance from] of our body. ‘body’ is singular = ‘the old covenant body’ of ‘the Death’ as per 7:24].
So, in simplified paraphrase I understand Paul as saying…
“For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall soon be revealed in us firstfruit saints. For the earnest expectation of Israel eagerly waits for the calling of the firstfruit sons of God. For Israel was subjected to the futility of the law, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected her in hope of covenant renewal; indeed Israel herself will also be fully redeemed from the bondage of the law into the glorious liberty of grace through the firstfruits children of God. For this we know, all Israel groans and labours with birth pangs together until now. And not only that, but we as the firstfruit saints who have the down payment of the eschatological Spirit, even we ourselves also groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemptive resurrection out of the old covenant body.”
Viewed this way “body” is corporate and not singular as in… “the body of evidence” or “this body of people” hence Paul’s use of “the body of Christ” etc. The “Body of Christ” or new covenant body stood in contradistinction to ‘the body of Moses’ i.e., the old covenant body out of which many Israelites were being raised. Those of the old covenant body persecuted those of the new covenant body, as per Acts 9:1-4; Gal 4:21-29, et al.
Remember, thanks to “the dispersion” or “Diaspora” the first roots of the early church were inherently Hebraic (Acts 15:21; 26:7a; Jas 1:1; 1Pet 1:1) which in part helps explain why Paul in addressing the Gentile church of Corinth could say in all confidence of NOT being misunderstood “all our fathers…” and then give a rundown of Hebrew history – 1Cor 10:1-11.
It was the “the children of God” i.e., the firstfruit saints, aka “the sons of God” (signifying covenantal authority) who “in Christ” were the elect from within historic Israel that experienced “in part” during that transitional age (Phil 3:10-12) this rising up out of the old covenant body of ‘the death’. This rising up came to fullness and fruition in the Parousia when ALL historic Israel was duly redeemed and as a result all humanity summarily reconciled.
The theme then continues where Paul announces the consequent result of Israel’s consolation…
Rom 11:12, 15 Now if their [Israel’s] fall is riches for the world [humanity], and their [Israel’s] failure riches for the Gentiles [firstfruit saints Acts 13:48; 15:14, 17], how much more their [Israel’s] fullness! … For if their [Israel] being cast away [by God] is the reconciling of the world [humanity], what will their [Israel’s] acceptance [by God] be but life [covenant renewal/resurrection] from the dead?.
Again, in simplified paraphrase I understand Paul as saying…
“Now if Israel’s fall in disobedience means riches for humanity, and Israel’s failure particular riches for the Gentile firstfruit saints, how much more then Israel’s own redemptive fullness! … For if Israel being cast away by God wrought the reconciling of humanity, what then will Israel’s acceptance by God be but covenant renewal, that is, life from the dead.”
Hi Davo,
Thank you for your post. Very interesting. Is your understanding of these things mentioned in the earliest Church Fathers’ writings?
To some degree they might be, though I’m not aware of such as my knowledge of ‘the fathers’ is limited.
I’ll start a thread in the ‘Church Father’s’ section if I can’t find anything in previous threads. Many thanks again.