The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Creatio ex creatione en amore

#1

Creatio ex creatione en amore: an alternative to creatio ex nihilo - what if creation has no beginning?

#2

“The basic idea of creatio ex creation en amore is that God has always—everlastingly—been creating out of that which God previously created. There was never a time God was not creating, and there was no first creation”

If everything has been created from what God previously created, the it seems obvious that there had to be a first creation.
Nevertheless it is an interesting theory.

#3

Far be it for me to disagree with you, Dave, but your conclusion is not obvious to me. I am aware of the numerous verses that contain the phrase “from the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4, 1 Peter 1:20, Rev 13:8 and at least seven other texts). I also hold to a young earth. However, I note that the word translated “world” is cosmos, suggesting to me that the “world” referred to in the text may encompass much more than our tiny planet Earth. I am also open to the thought that this universe may have been re-created over and over again and may have had no beginning and may have been, and remains infinite.

All far too much for my finite mind to delve into. Probably a good thing to mull over in my mind on the few occasions when I have difficulty in falling asleep!

Thanks, Michael, for drawing the idea of ‘Creatio ex creatione en amore’ to our attention.

1 Like
#4

I may have to drive to Canada to correct you, Norm.
Did God create the first thing, whatever it was, or did He create from already existent stuff? Was there no beginning of creation? That strikes me as peculiar.
Is there less oxygen for the brain up there, or no access to Thomas Aquinas?
All in fun. I think the theory in the OP is utterly illogical, but have fun with it!

#5

The infinitesimally small time at which creation started was just an example for the case where God has a beginning. I then took away the beginning for God leaving an infinitesimally small time after no beginning which collapses to no beginning. In mathematics, it’s similar to a value tending to zero.

Alternatively, if God came into existence minus infinity time ago and creation 3 centuries later (I’ve picked an arbitrary time as an example) , what is minus infinity time plus 3 centuries? Answer minus infinity time.

#6

Ah…I did not realize that you personally wrote it, now I feel like a horse’s butt…
I’ll read it a few more times.

#7

The idea is not mine but I’m trying to explain it based on my understanding of it. The idea comes from Thomas Oord.

#8

I’ve read it again. Interesting as it is, it is still imo illogical. Sorry Norm.
It could be that God ‘thought’ for a ‘long time’ before creating anything.
Probably (most likely) way above my pay grade, but I do grok the Bible’s basic position that creation STARTED by the intelligence and sovereignty of God.

Grok:
Understand (something) intuitively or by empathy.
‘corporate leaders seemed to grok this concept fairly quickly’
-Oxford Living Dictionaries

For more philosophical arguments, try a few of these online essays on for size:

A taste: "But note that one cannot explain why the universe exists by saying that it always existed. For even if there is no time at which it did not exist, there remains the question why it exists at all. The universe is contingent: it might not have existed. So even if it exists at every time with earlier phases causing later phases, that does not explain why it exists at all.

To say that the universe always existed is to say that it has no temporal beginning, no temporally first cause. But this gives no answer to the question why this temporally beginningless universe exists in the first place.

Here is where the theist invokes God. God is the ontologically, not temporally, first cause. Now if Mill asks, “But what causes God?” the answer is that God is a necessary being. If God were a contingent being, then a vicious infinite regress would arise. For one cannot get an ultimate explanation of U if one invokes a contingent G. And if there were an infinite regress of Gs, the whole series would be without ultimate explanation. Thts is true whether the regress is potentially infinite or actually infinite."

#9

I don’t think Oord is saying that the universe always existed - just that it was created from something God created before (and that something was itself created from something that was created before ad infinitum).

#10

I get that, but the infinite regress is not, I think, even possible. The MavPhil posts I referred to pretty much show that impossibility imo.
But I’m certainly not dogmatic about it.

#11

Any time, Buster. I can’t wait.

Only in Ottawa and the Trudeau mansion.

1 Like