Thank you, Cindy 
And youāre welcome And Iām hoping Bird will at least find a kindred spirit in me, if nothing elseā¦
Iām glad what I said helped you out.
Love and blessings to you as well
Matt
PS I made a few significant changes to the post, after thinking about it a little more, so you can read through it again if you like, maybe the additions might help you out too.
The challenge with Johnās Revelation is that it is Apocalyptic Literature which is not meant to be interpreted literally, but figuratively. It is meant to āinspireā and āencourageā and is not necessarily meant to āteachā anything. It is more like a painting like the Mona Lisa or Picassoās Gunerica, or even like a movie like āThe Matrixā or āLord of the Ringsā or even āHarry Potterā, than it is a text book on end-times. In fact, it might not even be about āend-timesā! Apocalyptic literature was never meant to be read, understood, or interpreted like didactic material. It is meant to inspire.
When I read Revelation, I get the feeling that God wins, good ultimately triumphs, evil will ultimately fall! This inspirational message can be applied spiritually - talking about the war within our souls, culturally - talking about the war between good and evil in our various cultures, historically - talking about the war between good and evil in various ages, cultures, nations throughout history, and furturistically - speaking to the ultimate triumph of good over evil!
Arguing about who the Beast is or what the mark of the Beast is is about like arguing over who Sauruman is in the Lord of the Rings or what the Oracle is in the Matrix.
Visions and dreams are a common means of God speaking to people, especially in the Middle East. Itās a dynamic part of their culture. And visions and dreams from God can speak powerfully to those who recieve such, but such visions and dreams are not always easily interpreted and rarely meant to be taken literally. And like parables, many times the details have no meaning, and often the vision/parable has one or two main points.
Western cultureās strength tends to be science, didactic literature, not artsy material; and thus we struggle to understand such because itās a different means of communication. Itās meant to speak to the emotions much more than speak to our logic. I believe that when people read Revelation like a text book on end-time events, they misread it and misinterpret it! Itās a painting, a movie that is meant to inspire and encourage people who are under persecution for their faith. Understood that way, it is powerful and unifying!
Sherman,
I listened to a dramatic reading of the Revelation once ā all in one go ā and what you describe is precisely what I got from it. I canāt say I picked up any new understanding, but I had in my heart the sense of a magnificent Renaissance painting ā the epic kind that has so much going on that you could stare at it all day long and still miss things? I once visited the Ringling Bros art collection in Sarasota FL, and that was the way I felt listening to Revelation that day. It just seemed to me a spectacular picture of our King Jesus, but I canāt really say why . . .
Blessings, Cindy
Cindy,
Thanks for sharing and if you think about it, thatās the way Revelation was initially meant to be communicated. Believers gathered together, likely in secret, possibly hiding for their very lives, one of Johnās disciples comes with a letter from John and he/she reads it aloud, encouraging those gathered that one day, yes, One Day the Lord will triumph and their tears are an offering before the Lord, a sweet smelling sacrifice! It was meant to be read and listened to, not discected and torn apart verse by verse, but swallowed whole, taken in like taking in a painting or a movie.
You can ask my kids, I love to read dramatically. I love to read scripture dramatically, whole sections. Itās a powerful means of communication!
In this cosmic battle, God wins! Evil vs. Good - God wins and is ultimately Lord of All (good and evil).
Blessings,
Sherman
This is a great thread, and I understand how Bird feels, as I once felt that way about much in the Bible (although most of my problem was with the way Paulās writings were used to bolster the legalism in the congregation I attended.) What was causing my problem was that in my mindset of legalism, I felt that I had to understand everything I could about the Bible, so that I would know all the ārulesā. After a lot of years of pain and struggle, I got to the point where I started to concentrate on seeking His Grace in the scriptures, and then on viewing it all with a focus on His Love for us. Once I started doing that, my attitudes towards the parts of the Bible that had bothered me so much before began to change. Rev. 22:17 is one of my favorite verses:** āThe Spirit and the bride say, āCome.ā And let the one who hears say, āCome.ā And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.ā** Iām thirsty, Iām dying, and Iām poor; I have nothing to give except to invite the person next to me to āComeā also. When taken at a personal level, thereās a lot of theology and missionality in that one verse.
Sherman, thanks for pointing out the differences in apocalyptic literature from the rest of the styles of the Bible. Fascinating stuff to me these days, but as you said, written for an entirely different purpose than the Gospels and the Epistles, but still with great pearls of wisdom for me to use where Iām at right now.
Paul explains in Romans chapter 11, that there was a partial hardening of Israel. It was part of his plan to bring salvation to the gentiles, which would later aid in bring salvation back to the Jews. I wonāt pretend to understand, but I believe God is good and that he loves us and that Jesus, in all his quirkiness, embodied that. There is this beautiful verse in Romans 11:
Romans 11:32
GODāS WORD Translation (GW)
32God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.
His ultimate goal was to be merciful to ALL people. You can rant against Jesus for being mean, but, if in the end they all end up receiving healing and mercy, and it all lead to that, it will have been worth it. Paul was beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, whipped, hated, imprisoned, etc. etc. and he called this āhis present ***light ***afflictionsā and he said that they were nothing compared to the glory to be revealed. In the end, if we look back and say, āIt was all worth it.ā, which I believe we will, the afflictions end up becoming a huge part of what we are. There was a missionary named Darlene Rose who was imprisoned during world war 2. She was separated from her new husband who was murdered during his incarceration. She was mistreated, starved, lost her husband, almost killed by malaria while in prison, and this for being a Christian. Later, when she was an old woman, she looked back at those years and called them **āmy precious yearsā. **
I wonāt pretend to understand God, but I believe he is good and that Jesus was God in the flesh for the sole purpose of saving ALL of us. I believe he will accomplish that and I trust Him to that task, even if it seems like he says weird things and seems mean sometimes. There is soooooooo much I donāt understand. But I trust Him, and as a result, it is beautiful to me. This evil will ultimately be for our good.
dirt
Well said, bro I think thatās a good stance to take. āWe can trust His heart, even when we canāt trace His hand.ā
Blessings