The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Demons - real or not?


#181

Yes. It’s poetic language. Not meant to be taken any more literally than David’s psalm describing God riding on a cloud. Same with the king of Tyre.


#182

We’re on a site where most question whether evangelicals have been right about some major ideas, like salvation. So I suspect when you just say such about Hebrew poetry, at least one person finds it convincing. But if these texts best explain who the Accuser really is, what later ‘unfolding’ Bible texts say that these two kings were actually metaphors for a bad angel?


#183

Gift me with your working caricature of demons and satan.


#184

There are no evil spirits today, the people of the first century, did in fact have to deal with the things that the New testament was dealing with… And they did so in a realistic fashion… But we are not needing nor obligated to deal with these things.


#185

Well, the ‘pitchfork’ was a memorable image, and ‘ethereal’ conveys the correct amount of other-worldness and insubstantiality. Those were well-done.
I have absolutely zero insights (of course you already knew that lol) into either appearance or substance of any supernatural entities. I think, as in opinion, that we do have our angels and our demons, but neither clad in red nor horned nor pitchfork-armed.
I do think, though, that the ‘supernatural’ part of our world is as real, or more so, than our visible portion. I see no way to prove OR disprove such an opinion, other than the ubiquitous experience of humanity and the testimony of various scriptures. Par excellence, the Bible.
I like my ‘larger’ view.
" Quarrel? Nonsense; we have not quarreled. If one is not to get into a rage sometimes, what is the good of being friends?"
George Eliot


#186

I like the quote :+1:


#187

What about the zombies of Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)? What animates them?

And if one doesn’t accept demons…then give a theory, to explain all the evil and inhumanity to man - what causes it? If if you say it’s “sin”, then what are the upper limits? And what makes a Hitler do greater evil stuff, then you or I might?

image

And this is what “might” happen, to those in the end - not believing in demons:

And if we listen to our guardian angel, it might help us avoid the demons!


#188

We need a song, to devote to this thread. This one has 679 Million hits and counting!

And this version with words - has 234 Million hits and counting!

But as a prospect…I found a solution, to help me!

The title is: Orthodox Church strikes back!

And when a demon sometimes, influences a bad man or woman…God sends an angel, to influence a hero!


#189

“Look how you have fallen from the sky” (Isaiah 14:12) certainly brings to mind Jesus’ words, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.” It would appear Jesus drew His words from Isaiah 14, making the connection that this passage was not only referring to the king of Babylon, but also to Satan’s fall .

There is a hermeneutic principle sometimes referred to as the principle of double reference, or double fulfillment.

It is not uncommon in Scripture for the writer to move from descriptions of earthly events to heavenly events - when there were some parallels between the two. For example, Psalm 45 first describes an earthly king, but then goes on to describe the Messiah - the King who will come from heaven.

We see this desire of Satan to be worshiped [from Don Stewart at Blue Letter Bible]:

  • I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High (Isaiah 14:14).

  • And he said to Him, “All these I will give You, if You will fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:9).

In the temptation of Adam and Eve, we see him promoting this desire in others, to bring them into bondage to himself:

  • For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil (Genesis 3:5).

Satan is also called “the god of this age” in Scripture.

  • Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Therefore Satan has been consistent from the beginning in attempting to be like God, and tempting others to do the same.

This long-held ambition of Satan will be temporarily satisfied when he, and his own representative the Antichrist, will be worshipped by the inhabitants of the earth.

  • And they worshipped the dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? And who is able to war with him? (Revelation 13:4).

[But how could you possibly see this if you don’t recognize the future fulfillment of Bible prophecy, or even the existence of any spirits other than God and man?]

If you look up Satan in a Topical Bible, Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are the keystone passages about Satan.

In the Isaiah passage and in the Ezekiel passage, many, including me, would argue that the representation is Lucifer/Satan, working in and the consummating of his plans through earthly kings and rulers who take for themselves divine honors and who, whether they actually know this or not, rule in the spirit and agenda of Satan.

“For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 6:12).

Satan is the principality behind the powers of this corrupt world system.

In Ezekiel, “the anointed cherub -an angelic being. That statement could never apply to a human king, but to Lucifer/Satan who is behind the human king. Again, I agree with those who argue this angel is the highest creature the LORD ever created. The LORD says of him, “You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.” Satan was the wisest creature God ever created.

Here is a great discussion about “the principle of double reference,” and of types and antitypes, called,

Do Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak of Satan?


#190

[quote=“Hermano, post:189, topic:13894, full:true”]
Bob asked, “if Isaiah best explains who the Accuser really is, what later Bible texts say that this king actually is a metaphor for a bad angel?”

Hermano replied, “Look how you have fallen from the sky” (Isaiah 14:12) certainly brings to mind Jesus’ words, *“I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven,” making the connection that this passage was not only referring to the king of Babylon, but also to Satan’s fall."

Thanks. I agree that “Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are the keystone passages” for your Satanology. I myself find no ‘certainty’ that either verse you cite is clearly teaching that Satan was someone from heaven who ‘fell,’ or got thrown out of the heavenly council to reign on earth. The phrase “fallen from the sky” was a poetic Hebrew way of expressing a great defeat or fall. Isaiah uses it for a Babylonian king’s military defeat. And Jesus, for his disciple’s healings that defeat Satan. Neither is declaring how Satan or evil came to the earth.

If Jesus’ words are the clearest teaching that Isaiah’s words about a defeated king are actually making sure that we now know the origin of Satan, I’d think that it’s so sketchy that it must not be very important to know.


#191

If you truly believe this as satan being an outside entity, I do feel sorry for you, for God and his Son have not made any impact on you. You are still deceived. For man is the power that corrupts everything. Yes the satan is the accuser, and it is man.


#192

I thought man was reconciled?


#193

He is. Totally, 100% without a doubt.


#194

Dave are trying to say that man may NOT be responsible for what he or she does?