Well didn’t you just tie me to someone’s slippery slope
No I didn’t.
Hey - forget it. You guys are all wound up, up above, and touchier than I am with Trump! Unbelievable!!
I’ll take my fascination with worldviews elsewhere. Or I’ll watch reruns of I Dream of Jeanie
Hello pot… this is amazing; look at what YOU said…
“Beats me. And chill … Geez. … Hey - forget it. You guys are all wound up, up above, and touchier than I am with Trump! Unbelievable!!”
Clearly Dave you’re the one who’s wound up and touchy in need to chill… and maybe don’t bring your unresolved Trump issues into the thread — or I’ll take my bat and ball and go home
I did think the worldview thing was interesting and worth talking about, but alas.
I can joke about my Trump touchiness - hell, I DID joke about it.
But, if noone wants to talk about that worldview thing, fine with me.
I’ve got a suggestion for that bat, though
You are now free to indulge your apoplecticism in your demon-denying! Get thee behind me!!
( I made up that word just for you.)
All phenomena can be divided into 3 general categories:
It is from God
Before looking at categories 2 and 3…one must make a thorough effort, to eliminate the category 1 possibility.
Now suppose President Trump was on that forum. And he was interested, in what Berserk and I - had to say.
So he hires investigators, to dig into our backgrounds. Now he would find:
I did hang around with a Roman Catholic priest’s healing masses…and this priest was said, to have the gift of healing and hearing the voice of God.
I did hang around for several years…with the spiritual leader and medicine people, from the Two Feathers Medicine Clan
I did hang around so called “real” saints, from the East.
I do have friends from the universities of Oxford, Yale, Harvard, Northwestern and the University of Chicago
I do go to groups, that claim to tap into energy…for either meditation or healing
And none of the Native American, Eastern or RC resources…“advertise”, “charge money” or “sell tickets”
And maybe the investigators find that Berserk:
Graduated from Harvard - or not
Did hang around folks who claim to have demonic possession experiences, etc.
Well, all these high price investigators - can attest to the facts I just stated.
But they can’t attest to the REALITY, of the healings and miracles…I claim to have experienced and/or witnessed. Or the reality of the demonic stuff, Berserk claims to have witnessed.
- They hang around the same people…the same ceremonies…the same rituals…and experience it for themselves.
No amount of personal testimony, videos, audios, “expert” testimony, etc…will convince either them, or President Trump…Or anyone here, for that matter.
And Trump and his investigators will discover…
I have a large, social media presence - in the real world
I did take professional academic courses, most of my adult life
I was a professional technologist, writer, and copy writer
I do "dabble’ in some romance and Asian languages
I know a “little bit” about homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine
And none of their investigations will uncover whether I’m:
A real Holy Fool
A Holy Fool pretender or wannabee
Crazy (even if I pass, all the psychologists’ and psychiatrists’ “tests”)
A practical joker
Or “believe” everything I state as “fact”
Now for a video, to prove all the supernatural claims. Watch as my assistant, pulls a zombie - out of the hat!
The posted YouTube video demonstrates the reality of demonic possession and exorcism. Furniture is moved or toppled by an unseen hand. Faces are scratched in patterns of 3 to mimic the Trinity. A foul Sulphur-like odor fills the room. Evil apparitions are seen–and shown in the video! Objects owned by the victims dematerialize and relocate to a boarded-up area under the stairs, and so, were not physically relocated there.///
The moving furniture looks like it could have easily been achieved through a fishing line or video editing. People can scratch themselves and then falsely claim demons did it. The people could be lying about the sulfur stench. Perhaps the homeowner opened a jar of pickled eggs. The story about the stuff under the stairs is unverified. Aside from the homeowner’s word, why should we believe that the Legos and demon drawing actually showed up under the stairs?
I argued your assertion that defeating Satan must be so dramatic that it’s undeniable means that all those at Fuller and in my long experience who endorse your kind of exorcisms are presenting frauds. You respond, Yes, they lack spectacular enough paranormal verifications. You generously validate my observation of your logic.
For you, if there’s no "“bloody scratches on someone’s chest,” or a terrified “3 year screaming incessantly with her eyes rolled up,” then one can’t be confronting the demonic.
If there’s no “furniture moving about”, no “mood induced waterbombs” or “lights flashing in the closet,” then it surely can’t be the Angel of Light messing in our lives.
No “growling females,” no “evil apparitions In a video,” or “foul Sulfurous odor” of rotten eggs?! Then it’s surely not Beelzebub.
By your criterion, most of our Lord’s own exorcisms couldn’t involve the real Lucifer.
But in my view, an obsession with the powers of darkness in terms of spectaculars means that you facilitate the true Accuser having a field day in his deceptions in our lives.
P.S. You newly asked if I’m implying members of your interesting family could be “deluded”? And I’m sorry that my straightforward answer is that in a world where many ‘true believers’ are convinced of all sorts of funky and contradictory things, I do think you convey an impression to some of us of some gullibility.
That’s an entirely fair question, and when we’re dogmatic, I agree we risk being wrong here. But FWIW, I found pastors can’t avoid such questions, in choosing how to approach perverse maladies their congregants face.
E.g. I had one dear believer diagnosed with ‘schizophrenia.’ When she’d take her meds (controlling her brain chemistry), she didn’t hear the voices that accused her of not being saved (when she did report such, I’d tell her they were lying voices, and assure her of God’s promises). Wonderful missionaries with us who served in areas where demons were seen everywhere suggested we consider she was possessed by such, with the implication that they wished they knew a reliable exorcist. They also recognized that telling this woman that the voices she hears are proof that she was indeed possessed by Satan, and we’re bringing in someone to have a tug of war about that, could also have repercussions in her life, especially if that diagnosis was incorrect.
Of course, recognizing illness as an evil work of the Enemy and the fall, similar questions could be asked about how to approach someone with more ordinary physical symptoms such as many healed by Jesus’ exorcisms. Would we lean more there to a medical doctor than to the more traditional assumption that addressing evil spirits is usually the key? In short, how much we embrace the modern mindset is indeed a relevant and unavoidable question. And which is more helpful will always be a debated open question.
Thus I’d admit that I find sharing the modern mindset that our science is better than the first century is unavoidably relevant here. My experience is that medicine and more conventional love and support offered more reliable ministry than looking to exorcism. And my perception was that in the face of our inability to win some battles, colleagues that became convinced of Berzerk’s views regularly ended up producing unhealthy results, practiced deceptive rationalizations when exorcism was a bust, and reinforced a fearful context where Jesus was not ultimately glorified.
Of course, I realize that Berzerk sfncerely believes his circle is an exception to this pattern, and we each need to pursue what commends itself to us as most true and helpful.
Thanks Bob for that thoughtful post.
CS Lewis made the point in ‘The Discarded Image’ that yes, the medieval (for instance) worldview was certainly wrong, but in his opinion closer to the truth than ours. We moderns have tended to dis-enchant the world with our scientism, whereas they, with gods of the hearth and of the woods, satyrs, presences in nature that awed them, along with their faith, had a richer experience.
For Lewis, and I happen to agree, there is more to nature, for instance, than the scientific description of it.
In the main I agree with your post. Still, I think we moderns do not necessarily have the ‘correct worldview’, though our science, not our scientism, is advanced.
A good topic.
We had a fun thread on this some time ago that was received well by a number of members.
Yes Dave, I quite agree that the alternative is not to dis-enchant our glorious and mysterious God-filled world, nor does questioning first century views of how cause and effect works require that. Indeed, even in the anti-God realm I think the ancient views were rightly recognizing that evil and the powers of evil are real, even if we’re less sure about their ontology and the dualism of that. That’s why I can tell Berzerk that I see Jesus’ deliverance ministry as a potent sign of his power and authority over the evil that assails us, even while I question that the compelling evidence of the powers of darkness are flashing lights and psychokinesis.
Indeed… and it is unfortunate that it is assumed that we tout that they were similarly “wrong” and we are thereby “superior” — neither of which, as I am aware, have you or I have stated. It’s not a case of right versus wrong or ignorance versus superiority; it is more a case that through empirical experience aka revelation that, to paraphrase Paul… “when I was a child I reasoned accordingly… but now I know differently”. Their words and writings reflect their given mindset — like where do people think the assumed belief of a flat earth came from?
From my experience within evangelicalism dualism is alive and well and way more prevalent than many care to admit… showing itself in many conversations where so-called satanic subliminalisation is simply assumed to be the counter-piece to God’s supremacy — nothing but a rank Christianised Yin/Yang aka, DUALISM!
Notice I shared 3 different videos - 3 different people - talking about the reality of zombies and the tribulation. Here’s one of the interesting comments, from one of the commentators:
I have had a similar dream and one dream, in particular, stands out to me when I hear your dream. I was standing in a building in NYC (which is where I am from but now I too live by winter park FL) and I was looking out of the window of this building and all of a sudden I see a big tsunami hit the streets and I saw people trying to swim and so many that didn’t make it, at that moment I heard the Holy Spirit tell me this is just the beginning there is more to come. All of a sudden I see thousands and thousands of sharks in the water. Then the dream changed and it seems as if I was trying to hide and I was running to different places in this building to hide. I was with two other people and I’m not sure who it was but when we came to a door which seemed like an exit door I opened it and I saw zombies. But in my spirit, I knew that these were people that were in the water that turned. They were attacking people other people that were running and then I woke up. I’ve had so many dreams since but I only pray to God to give me the discernment to understand what they mean and I am obedient to what the holy spirit tells me. I felt that I had to share this dream with you and I am not sure why but I knew I have to. God bless you, brothers and sisters. Let continue to wake up those who are asleep and open their spiritual eyes and hearts. The lord is coming soon. Amen.
There…I provided “proof”…
Of course, the only “logical” explanation…is that the demons that Berserk talked about, are animating the zombies.
Yin and Yang: “Two complementary principles of Chinese philosophy: Yin is negative, dark, and feminine, Yang positive, bright, and masculine. Their interaction is thought to maintain the harmony of the universe and to influence everything within it.”
Dualism: “The doctrine that there are two independent divine beings or eternal principles, one good and the other evil.”
Surely no one here is promoting these ideas! No one is saying the devil is co-equal with God. Lucifer is merely a created being who rebelled, and will stand in judgment for it. He is in no wise equal to God, or working to maintain harmony and balance in the universe. But the crux of the argument is: there should be no denying that he is very powerful, and so there are two influences:
Acts 26:17b-18 I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.
2 Cor. 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ , who is the image of God.
James 3:15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual [not of the Holy Spirit], demonic.
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
No one lives in a spiritual vacuum. Each choice moves us either toward life, or toward death:
John 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
This is the most stupid thing I have ever seen: The devil is not a co equal with God…He is not wise like God but you better believe in him or else. This is crazy insanity…
1 Peter 5.8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
I think Lucifer was Nebuchadnezzar.
I’m not sure that all definitions of “dualism” require that the two powerful beings contesting each other be altogether “equal.”
Please tell me you’re not advocating this…Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
So what God do we serve, the God of creation, The God of Israel, The God who sent his Son, or some made up goblin? Our pride struts like a roaring lion, we never want to be seen as wrong and we all want the understanding that we are better than the person beside us.
Look up the meaning of devil= adversary.
The adversary is you and me friend… Our free will doings. We are the Devil.
I don’t believe Satan is a being, and yet I say “Get behind me Satan” in my head many times each day. Helps me nip sinful thoughts in the bud.