The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Demons - real or not?

#161

I did not know that.
I thought that you perhaps held that everything was done, completed on the cross, and we are now reconciled to God? So - how can we be the devil, or even in revolt? No doubt I am not understanding you.

#162

Yepper you have some holes to fill in your assessment…

The original sin to God was indeed mans thinking that he could be as God. To your post, yes everything has been done from God’s standpoint. The son was sent and Israel was in fact redeemed, and as the biblical narrative played out, the gentile nations (rest of the world at that time) were also redeemed, so IN YOUR WORDS, THROUGH THE CROSS ALL ARE RECONCILED.

Dave you have always seemed to be somewhat befuddled by the understanding that Christ came for the first century Jews. Or Israelites if that makes it better.

The understanding that God has somehow been brought to peace with those first century folks as well as us AND is still allowing our free will is from my stand point extraordinary.

I look forward to your response.

#163

Perhaps I am.

#164

Hey engage for Christ’s sake…

#165

Yes Dave, far be it from you to believe the plain statements of the New Testament regarding evil spirits.

I think we were all reconciled to God through the blood of Christ. However, most people still don’t know that, and are still enemies of God in their minds (Col. 1:21), including Lucifer. But we remember Nebuchadnezzar finally repented:

Dan 4:37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

The redemptive work of Jesus on the cross was prefigured by the bronze serpent raised up on the pole in the wilderness by Moses (Numbers 21:9, John 3:14). So I believe Christ’s redemptive work includes the first sinner, that great serpent Lucifer; and so I propose that like Nebuchadnezzar, the devil will finally repent and surrender to Christ.

The Jews were virtually clueless about the devil until Jesus came on the scene, in the brightness of the Holy Spirit, exposing and casting out demons and destroying the works of the devil. And still today, without the divine illumination given by the Spirit, the devil—a spirit being—can remain hidden, even to believers. That is one reason why The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is so indispensable.

What Berserk was basically trying to tell you about this:

Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers

The whole future is present to the mind of Christ , and in the confidence of victory He uses the emphatic “now” of both the judgment of the world and the dethronement of its prince. It should be noted, however, that the tenses differ. The one is thought of as the immediate result of His death; the other is the gradual victory of truth, and is spoken of in the same future as the drawing all men of the following verse .

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

31 . Now … now ] With prophetic certainty Christ speaks of the victory as already won.

… shall … be cast out ] By the gradual conversion of unbelievers. This is a process which will continue until the last day.

Pulpit Commentary

It is important, however, to notice the difference of tenses. “Now is the judgment of this world,” - this is the immediate result of his death; “Now shall the prince of this world be east out” describes the gradual victory of truth, which is pursued more explicitly in the next verse [i.e., “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all _men_ unto me”].

#166

I know Paul speaks about having the mind of Christ…I gotta hand it to ya for claiming a berserk mind :wink:

#167

The art of reading… I specifically prefaced Yin/Yang with “Christianised” — referring to the watered-down, limp-wristed theology that says things like… Yes Jesus defeated sin BUT…, or Yes, Jesus defeated the devil BUT…, just fill in the small print missing information that justifies NON BELIEF in the complete victory of Jesus — just because “things don’t appear” to be as one assumes they should be IF Jesus really won the day etc — aka, evangelicalism! Or as I’ve seen it stated… “Well IF this is it then count me out”… as though having the audacity to tell God how XYZ should be, go figure?

THERE IS YOUR evangelical DUALISM beautifully stated… the eternal struggle between GOOD AND EVIL — of course you misrepresent Jesus in doing so, but a small price to pay in peddling a lie, i.e., IF there’s a thief (satan apparently) STILL out there then Jesus didn’t have the strength to pull the skin off a rice pudding.

#168

You have the gift of words.

A machismo Christianity is what you want, gol-dangit!!
com

#169

DaveB to Davo!

Well, Dave. That picture looks like Christ, is ready to punch out the zombies.

And in any discussion…I’m like the woman, in the Old Wendy’s commercial.

Where everyone is saying:

It’s certainly a big discussion. It’s a VERY big discussion!

Where I yell:

Where’s the zombies?

P.S. In order to be a correct grammarian…I need to yell: “Where are the zombies”…but that wouldn’t resonate well, with the original Wendy’s commercial.

#170

@hermano Lucifer isn’t a name. It means morning star. When the KJV was translated, the translators didn’t know what the original Hebrew meant so they assumed it was somebody’s name. But the context makes it clear that the morning star was the king of Babylon.

#171

RE this discussion it s/b considered by people who accept demons as real as i do, that several contributors here are Full Preterists or equivalent and they believe Satan and evil were destroyed in 70AD (i believe) so naturally they would tend to think demons are not real because it fits in better with their belief system. It’s just human nature to try to see things consistently.

#172

It’s NOT a case of were (or in your case are) they real BUT were/are such as these… pitchforked spirit entities as you believe? OR is there another viable explanation? Some of us, and definitely NOT all of a prêterist persuasion, simply contend otherwise; that a prêteristic hermeneutic provides some of those viable answers seems to rattle the cage of others.

If you want to keep an ethereal satan then for sure such a being can be drawn into your salvific work by doing what Paul did… hand as many as you can over to your ethereal being (1Cor 5:5; 1Tim 1:20) that their flesh may be destroyed AND YET their spirit saved in the Day of the Lord… oddly this isn’t so popular in the school of evangelistic training… :question:

#173

Hum. According to Got Questions:

The first reference to the morning star as an individual is in Isaiah 14:12: “How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” (NIV). The KJV and NKJV both translate “morning star” as “Lucifer, son of the morning.” It is clear from the rest of the passage that Isaiah is referring to Satan’s fall from heaven (Luke 10:18). So in this case, the morning star refers to Satan.

Maybe you are referring, to a different passage. Can you cite the chapter and verse / verses, you are referring to?

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#174

The gift of words, misleading and dishonest caricature as those words are, is still a gift.

#175

No, I’m referring to Isaiah 14. Isaiah specifically states that he’s talking about the king of Babylon.

#176

Yes, but there are layers of prophetic meaning unfolding over time:

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Isa 14:12-15. The Jews Address Him Again as a Fallen Once-bright Star.

The language is so framed as to apply to the Babylonian king primarily, and at the same time to shadow forth through him, the great final enemy, the man of sin, Antichrist, of Daniel, St. Paul, and St. John; he alone shall fulfil exhaustively all the lineaments here given.

  1. Lucifer—“day star.” A title truly belonging to Christ (Re 22:16), “the bright and morning star,” and therefore hereafter to be assumed by Antichrist .

Recall that Satan briefly entered the cooperative Judas Iscariot (John 13:27).
He will similarly take full control of another cooperative man one day: Antichrist (1 Jn. 2:18), a.k.a.,

  • The Little Horn (Dan. 7:8; 8:9)
  • A Vile Person (Dan. 11:21)
  • The Assyrian (Isa. 10:5)
  • The Chaldean (Hab. 1:6)
  • The Man of Sin (II Thess. 2:3)
  • The Beast out of the sea (Rev. 13:1).

Satan will attempt to thwart the first pre-Trib Rapture, but will fail (Rev. 12:4-6).
(-Pregnant woman = visible sleeping Church/virgins,
-Raptured baby = invisible awake Church/virgins,
-Dragon = Satan)

Satan and his angels will then also fail in battle against Michael and his angels, lose their place in heaven, and be “hurled down”—(Rev. 12:7-9).
(There are apparently three heavens, 1. our immediate atmosphere, 2. outer space–,eg., the sun, moon, and stars, and, 3. the home of God).

Since Satan, a spirit, will lose his “heavenly” mobility and be confined to earth, he will seek earthly mobility by taking full possession of the Antichrist (“the beast”), a man who, after his apparent death and resurrection, effectively becomes Satan:

3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” Rev. 13:3-4.

Also, in the same vein as the wicked king of Babylon in Isaiah 14, who metaphorically represents the devil (‘falling from heaven, and finally being cast to the earth’), the wicked king of Tyre also metaphorically represents the devil:

Ezekiel 28:12-16 (NIV)

12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I DROVE you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I EXPELLED you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

Both Babylon and Tyre will reappear as major world cities, rebuilt during an initial time of world peace and prosperity under Antichrist (a coming golden age of sensuality punctuated by the pre-Trib rapture and the start of Tribulation, e.g.,:

  • 1Th. 5:3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

  • Lk. 17:26-27 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark."

Note regarding the futures of Tyre and Babylon:

-Tyre has been continuously inhabited, e.g., Acts 21:7, to this present day, unlike Ezekiel 26:14,19, so Ezekiel chapters 26-28 are still unfulfilled.

-Babylon. I discussed the resurrection of Babylon under Antichrist here.

-World empires. And compare the beasts of Daniel 7 with their final appearance in Rev. 13:2.

#177

Hermano, When you agree the original text refers to historical figures, and does not at all specify an evil angel or some future Enemy, but may resemble that in later texts, I think you only confirm qaz’ perception and claim.

#178

On the contrary, I just said that “there are prophetic layers of meaning unfolding over time,” and that the kings of Babylon and Tyre metaphorically represent Satan in the passages addressed in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28!

We serve an all-knowing God, “who declares the end from the beginning” (Is. 46:10), and “Who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were.” Romans 4:17b.

#179

Sounds to me like nothing more than presuppositions you’re bringing to the text. Isaiah 14 makes zero indication it’s describing anyone other than the king of Babylon.

#180

Give me a break! You don’t think many evangelical Christians have been arguing my identifications from the very beginning?

You think in Isaiah 14 that the king of Babylon was a human prophetically seen to “fall from heaven” and be “cast down to the earth”?!

I added Ezekiel’s passage to make it more obvious to you! You think some king of Tyre “was in Eden, the garden of God,” and was “anointed as a guardian CHERUB” (“an angelic being…flanking God’s throne” Strong’s), and was expelled from heaven, too?

Puh-LEEZ. :open_mouth: