Devils

[AUniversalist]

What do you mean when you say that I cannot understand your position unless I accept your position?

You must accept that the position is valid whether you agree with it our not, otherwise you disrespect my opinion as well as myself for holding it and of course will not allow yourself to even understand it.

Are you asking me those questions? If so, then I’d probably want to arrive at a shared definition of many terms (since that could easily lead to confusion), but if I’m allowed to answer with that caveat then I too would answer yes to all of them.

Alright! Good start. Now we are on the path of understanding. If we cannot agree on our terms and definitions and our premises, we definitely cannot understand each other because we use different terms, different definitions and premises which do not have even an ounce of similarity to even discuss.

As I said, I enjoy that you actually participate in the discussion and presenting your points, unlike I have found of the others who ignore anything I said and just keep repeating their opinions without challenge.

More interestingly, I’m not sure you addressed my points regarding a clarification of your position. Could you tell me plainly if what I said accurately reflects your theological understanding, because I’m still really unsure of exactly where you’re coming from (and I’m prepared to accept that that is more my fault than yours).

God is not accountable for the evil humanity chooses to do. Therefore, if a man rapes another man, God is not to blame, that man is. Therefore to say God is evil because humanity participates in evil actions, really is far far away from my position. To say that God is evil because evil exists, means you think evil is inherent to God and again, really far far away from my position.

Now let us simplify this statement:

Are you saying that all evil, all suffering, all pain, all misery, every murder, every rape, every act of bloodshed or abuse is part of God’s great and glorious will, but that He is not evil nor can I judge Him because these horrors are only temporary? That evil helps us see good better, that unless we had darkness we wouldn’t know what light was? That genocide and child abuse help me to appreciate that God is good, and that we’d be worse-off without these abominations?

The existence of evil is part of God’s great and glorious will of this creation. The reason you (or myself) cannot judge God for these things because we are presently on the receiving end of the evil that exists in this creation and because we, like everyone else are looking into the mirror darkly and we reason like children. If our hope is in this life, then of course God would be seen as evil, because all that we are and will be is present, but is that what the disciples and prophets spoke of?

Romans 8:16-18
The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God. And if we are [His] children, then we are [His] heirs also: heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ [sharing His inheritance with Him]; only we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory. [But what of that?] For I consider that the sufferings of this present time (this present life) are not worth being compared with the glory that is about to be revealed to us and in us and for us and conferred on us!

You took a slipperly slope, in which you see the pain of childbirth to be the point of giving birth to children. Yes, you will suffer evil, that isn’t the point of evil in this creation.

1 Peter 2:19-20
For one is regarded favorably (is approved, acceptable, and thankworthy) if, as in the sight of God, he endures the pain of unjust suffering. [After all] what [a]kind of glory [is there in it] if, when you do wrong and are punished for it, you take it patiently? But if you bear patiently with suffering [which results] when you do right and that is undeserved, it is acceptable and pleasing to God.

James 5:9-13
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you [yourselves] may not be judged. Look! The Judge is [already] standing at the very door. An example of suffering and ill-treatment together with patience, brethren, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord [as His messengers].

You know how we call those blessed (happy) who were steadfast [who endured]. You have heard of the endurance of Job, and you have seen the Lord’s [purpose and how He richly blessed him in the] end, inasmuch as the Lord is full of pity and compassion and tenderness and mercy. But above all [things], my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or by any other oath; but let your yes be [a simple] yes, and your no be [a simple] no, so that you may not sin and fall under condemnation.

Is anyone among you afflicted (ill-treated, suffering evil)? He should pray. Is anyone glad at heart? He should sing praise [to God]."

2 Peter 1:4-8
"By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.

For this very reason, [e]adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in [f]exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence), and in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety), and in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love. For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [g]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One)."

If you think that you would be a person without choice, that you would know joy, that you would have emotional commitment and attachment to life and those lives around you should there be no evil, I am sure if that was the case, God would have created the universe and everything in it perfect…wait…

…could this be a belief you hold? That God created everything perfect and we ‘fell’ from this state into perpetual chaos? Again, as I said, if we hold to different premises, of course we begin speaking an different language and misunderstand each other (not saying you hold to this view, as you said you have a different understanding of Adam and Eve in the first place).

So as you can see, this is a discussion, we both have our ‘conclusions’ and I am absolutely willing and able to conclude my errors and refocus my understanding to what is true, but that also means I need to listen to your points too and your position. I didn’t come to my conclusion without studying it and questioning it and even facing off with my God over it.

We good and open to discussion?

[pog]

AUniversalist: can I ask that we continue our discussion of this topic on the Philosophy:Moral Dilemmas board, it’s getting confusing for me to post both here and there on the same issue with the same person! I’ll address some points you raised in your last post and then I’ll move my attentions to the other thread.

You must accept that the position is valid whether you agree with it our not,

I’m not sure that follows. But regardless, if by ‘valid’ you mean a position held by others in christendom then yes, your position is valid. If you mean that your position has a robust claim to being both reasnbole and scriptural then of that I am not sure - maybe, maybe not. No doubt I’ll find out in this discussion.

Alright! Good start. Now we are on the path of understanding.

I hope you don’t mind me pointing out to you that some might interpret this kind of comment as very patronising and condescending. You might convert more people to your way of thinking if you avoided this kind of tone. Sorry if this comment offends.

To say that God is evil because evil exists, means you think evil is inherent to God and again, really far far away from my position.

I think I understand you better now, thank you for this reply. Where we differ, I suspect, is that I think that your position logically entails a conclusion different from the view reflected here - in other words I suspect your position is logically incoherent. Of course, I may be wrong about this.

The existence of evil is part of God’s great and glorious will of this creation.

And this is where I get my suspicions from.

The reason you (or myself) cannot judge God for these things because we are presently on the receiving end of the evil that exists in this creation and because we, like everyone else are looking into the mirror darkly and we reason like children.

Are you saying that I do not have enough rationality and/or information to be able to judge whether or not God is evil, or that if God does evil that it makes God evil? This is very confusing to me. I am ignorant, true. But I have the capability to tell, to some limited degree, right for wrong - else in what way am I morally accountable? Likewise, I can know by God’s own revelation that He is utterly good, or are all our interpretations of christ and scripture subject to radical doubt? And again, it seems a simple logical connection to say that one who does evil has an evil character, thus if God does evil He must be evil, or are you saying that logic is so untrustworthy that it is of no value in our reasoning? See, here again I suspect logical incoherence: if your position entails that I rid myself of basic morality, plain scripture and logic, then upon what foundation is your position built?

That God created everything perfect and we ‘fell’ from this state into perpetual chaos?

I think that mostly sums up my position, though with a few changes.

I believe that God created the best possible original conditons that would lead to the end of incomparable good (universe of free-willed beings in bliss), and that this set of original conditions did not include evil or an evil being(s) but did include freedom and the possibility for evil acts (against God’s will).

If God did not do His moral best he is guilty of sin; if He created evil or an evil being(s) He is guilty of sin; if He created a universe that would not, or might not, end in universal bliss for all He is guilty of sin; if He created a universe where gratuitous suffering was inevitable and foreknown and He could have done otherwise He is guilty of sin; if God created a universe populated by robots rather than free-willed beings and these beings suffer then He is guilty of sin.

[AUniversalist]

Alright! Good start. Now we are on the path of understanding.

I hope you don’t mind me pointing out to you that some might interpret this kind of comment as very patronising and condescending. You might convert more people to your way of thinking if you avoided this kind of tone. Sorry if this comment offends.

It is a good start to actually start discussing things and be on the path of understanding. Where was the tone again and how was that offensive?

To say that God is evil because evil exists, means you think evil is inherent to God and again, really far far away from my position.

I think I understand you better now, thank you for this reply. Where we differ, I suspect, is that I think that your position logically entails a conclusion different from the view reflected here - in other words I suspect your position is logically incoherent. Of course, I may be wrong about this.

I understand your suspicions, you will find that it is not. Remember I said evil only exists in this creation, it exists nowhere else except this ‘dimension’ (this present life).

The existence of evil is part of God’s great and glorious will of this creation.

And this is where I get my suspicions from.

Again, talking of ‘THIS’ creation. As I point out, you keep thinking that ‘this’ life is where our Hope is. Something Scripture completely disputes and the disciples repeat over and over.

The reason you (or myself) cannot judge God for these things because we are presently on the receiving end of the evil that exists in this creation and because we, like everyone else are looking into the mirror darkly and we reason like children.

Are you saying that I do not have enough rationality and/or information to be able to judge whether or not God is evil, or that if God does evil that it makes God evil? This is very confusing to me. I am ignorant, true. But I have the capability to tell, to some limited degree, right for wrong - else in what way am I morally accountable? Likewise, I can know by God’s own revelation that He is utterly good, or are all our interpretations of christ and scripture subject to radical doubt? And again, it seems a simple logical connection to say that one who does evil has an evil character, thus if God does evil He must be evil, or are you saying that logic is so untrustworthy that it is of no value in our reasoning? See, here again I suspect logical incoherence: if your position entails that I rid myself of basic morality, plain scripture and logic, then upon what foundation is your position built?

As I said, we (as you and I) reason as children even as adults. To make a conclusion based on emotion, is weak and reactive. I do this many times and I must put in check my emotion on the subject and look at it with purpose and reason. I say this because I see your objections because emotionally I find myself reacting to them too.

That God created everything perfect and we ‘fell’ from this state into perpetual chaos?

I think that mostly sums up my position, though with a few changes.

I believe that God created the best possible original conditons that would lead to the end of incomparable good (universe of free-willed beings in bliss), and that this set of original conditions did not include evil or an evil being(s) but did include freedom and the possibility for evil acts (against God’s will).

The problem with such position is that Scripture does not support it, only religion and dogma. The original sin doctrine is a doctrine created to justify the existence of conditional salvation. It was not a doctrine that initiated anything, but a response to the increasingly contradictory views that come against conditional salvation.

If God did not do His moral best he is guilty of sin; if He created evil or an evil being(s) He is guilty of sin; if He created a universe that would not, or might not, end in universal bliss for all He is guilty of sin; if He created a universe where gratuitous suffering was inevitable and foreknown and He could have done otherwise He is guilty of sin; if God created a universe populated by robots rather than free-willed beings and these beings suffer then He is guilty of sin.

How can sin be inputed where there is no Law? You believe that God is somehow bound by a Law? What command did God break that was given to Him? You can only be found guilty of sin, if there is a Law which imputes it. God cannot be guilty of an sin because the Law was given for mankind, unless you believe God is a man.

Lastly, what does it mean to ‘know’ evil?

[pog]

Can you repost your comments over at the other thread AUniversalist? I’ll do my best to respond to you there.

[AUniversalist]

We should make a new thread all together. There is a lot of information here. I will take a rest for a moment and return.

[Cindy_Skillman]

pog wrote:

    Alright! Good start. Now we are on the path of understanding.


:slight_smile: I hope you don't mind me pointing out to you that some might interpret this kind of comment as very patronising and condescending. You might convert more people to your way of thinking if you avoided this kind of tone. Sorry if this comment offends.

It is a good start to actually start discussing things and be on the path of understanding. Where was the tone again and how was that offensive?

FWIW, I found it condescending and insulting also. I realize you didn’t intend it that way, but of course all we have to go on here are written words, not having the usual visual/auditory cues to rely on.

If it helps, what I hear when I read this (“Alright! Good start. Now we are on the path of understanding.”) is an adult speaking to a child who has been properly chastised and is now behaving more appropriately.

[AUniversalist]

Decided to delete my response. My apologies if I grow frustrated with the focus always changing away from the subject.

I need to leave for a moment from discussions.