The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Did Christ Pre-exist?

Theology Christology
#21

Your last post has nothing to do with if Christ Pre-Exists.

Who here says God is doing nothing?

Jesus said, “Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” John 5:19

So your rant is off base concerning what I believe, but makes sense to you considering what you believe, and those of your same understanding of the doctrines of sin, trinity, soul, etc. In this example, your understanding of what is sin compels you to respond this way. It is why you have come to this conclusion and to cover this present understanding need to reconcile it by believing in the Trinity, that Jesus Himself is God, and not the Son of God who came from His Father, God. I said you believe what you believe because your doctrines have set you up to believe it in this way, not that it makes sense according to the Scriptures, or if for any reason your definitions of sin and the soul change.

Paul said, “For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

Jesus said, "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

I used to believe sin was something too, that it is not. I also was compelled by this definition of sin, that Jesus had to have been God and I also was compelled to believe that because sin was that thing which dictated what salvation is.

#22

All truth is God’s truth. :slight_smile:

#23

The Son “pre-exists” in precisely the same way the Father “pre-exists”. (But as I’ve indicated, I think all questions about God’s existence are silly (ie. they lack sense.) God doesn’t exist like a rock exists (because God isn’t a thing). Rather, he is the source of all existence.

Jesus was the one on the cross. Where was God? Was he in Christ, or was he in heaven? Was he bleeding, or was he letting someone else bleed?

If someone has my thumb in a vice, does my body suffer, does my mind suffer, or is it a silly distinction? In the same way, because they are one God, the suffering of the Son is also the suffering of the Father. Christ is no mere stand-in. No divine patsy. In Christ, God himself descends into our darkness.

Just as the Son obeys the Father, so my body obeys my mind. My body minus my mind is nothing but meat. Just as the Son does nothing, and is nothing, apart from the Father, my body does nothing and is nothing apart from my mind. This is not to say my body is not me. Both body and mind are fully human. In the same way, both Father and Son are fully God.

If I was ranting, I’d say your view of God is Islamic. :open_mouth: I reject Allah for the same reasons I reject unitarian concepts of God. Both are unworthy. Both diminish the glory.

Yes. In a similar way, I am a mind who rules, and a body who obeys. My mind animates my body by giving itself to me, and in return, my body holds my mind in existence.

My mind is greater than my body because it’s made from God’s breath, not from dust. This does not mean my body is not equally human and equally me.

Sin is nothing, void, empty, dark, absolute zero. It’s the primaeval chaos of Genesis 1. Being non-existent, the Dark cannot be destroyed. It can only be filled with Light. But the pit is very deep! God himself must come down from heaven and descend into the Deep, because only his boundless Light can fill that boundless Darkness. This is why Christ came, why he died, and why he descended into hell. This is why, at the end of days, there will be a new heaven, a new earth, but no sea. No chaos. Nowhere. This is why there will be no sun in the new world, because in Christ, God himself has come down and will be with us forever.

#24

When we read “the second man is of heaven” does this refer to Christ’s pre-existence as the Lord out of heaven, (coming to be the babe in Bethlehem) or is it referring to his present state after resurrection and ascention? I am not sure how to take Paul’s words.

#25

(Warning: Amateur at work. Read at own Risk.)

In Genesis we begin with the heavens above and the earth below, all in darkness. God speaks a creative Word. This Word reveals the mind of God, and instantly, the darkness above is filled with the light of God. Not photons, but wisdom, life, love etc. (Proverbs tells me God’s firstborn in Creation was wisdom. “Firstborn” meaning “preeminent”.) However, the divine Light does not penetrate the darkness below. God must make the sun, moon and stars to bring us light. (ie. he gives us the law and the prophets.) The will of God is done in heaven, but not yet done on earth. Note, we’re not doing science here, but theology. The earth in Genesis 1 isn’t referring to our planet, but to every dark corner of reality in which the will of God is not yet done.

God makes a bubble in the dark, chaotic sea, banishes the sea from the land, and commands the land to be fruitful. At his word, it springs to life. Of course it does. It’s been set free from chaos. God even fills the Deep with creatures (one of which swallows poor Jonah).

But it’s a leaky bubble. A tiny bit of chaos squeezes its way into Eden, as Adam soon discovers to his loss. We are descended from this man. (Again, we’re not talking biology or anthropology, but theology.) We are born of Adam. Adamah means “of the earth”, but it’s not “earth the planet”. That’s thinking like a modern scientist. The Biblical earth is the dark region of chaos lying beneath heaven, a place in which the will of God is not yet done. I also am an earth-man, a man in which the will of God is not yet done, a man in which there exists vast regions of darkness and many a shadowy corner. As Jesus said, we are all “born of water”.

God speaks another creative Word from heaven. Christ is that Word, the heavenly man in whom the will of God is done. Christ reveals the mind of God, saying, “Be ye perfect!” This is no less a command than “Let there be light!” However, the tense of the verb isn’t present imperative, but future indicative. ie. The re-creation of all things has begun. In Christ, humanity is being re-born, born of the heavenly spirit. The whole cosmos is being re-born. “Those living in a land of darkness have seen a great light.” The light of God has entered our dark world and will never be extinguished. Day by day, the darkness is being driven back.

Jesus said, unless a man is born of water (chaos) and of the Spirit (divine order, love, life), he cannot enter the kingdom.

In other words, it is impossible to enter heaven unless you first come from the hellish chaos that exists beneath heaven. This is obvious once you see it. Everything that God made began in the void. We all move (as it were) from non-being into being, from darkness into light, and the process isn’t always comfortable. It’s especially unpleasant when you’re half-way there. Half-baked. “Who shall deliver me from this body of death” etc.

#26

My own growing realization is that Christ Pre-existed. Yet I think there is too much philosophy used in support of the trinity, and too much tradition and emotion attached to this discussion for Christendom to ever change it’s mind. This is my final public contribution to this website. It is hoped that i have always been considerate to those using the EU, but i am aware I am human. - I wish both my older and newer articles had been more articulate, and am sure I made quite a few biblical errors (that should be polished) but I won’t make any changes now. (I promise)

I guess lately I have just become insecure. I don’t think I am considered to have a mind of my own. Recently I started a thread on forex trading, and I may have done this to show there is another side to me. That I do make my own decisions in life. I wish everyone all the very best. Send me a private message AU, and I will give you my email. Sorry Davo that I never responded back to your article in LOF thread.

Puddy

#27

I don’t understand. In what way am I the odd man out? Are you denying my Canadian Citizenship?

And if you are a Canadian, why are you calling July 1 “Dominion Day”. That name has not been used since Oct 27, 1982.

#28

Never a problem Puddy… keep your head up and enjoy your journey, blessings!! :slight_smile:

#29

I believe that it is the resurrection, which of course, He is the firstfruits and literally IS the resurrection, as we live through Him.

The value of the resurrection is missed in a lot of discussion. Paul said it was his hope. Jesus continually spoke of it. It is one of the elementary doctrines, that well, most people don’t think of or give a second thought.

1 Corinthians 15:12-16
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.

(side note: notice that Christ died, and GOD raised Him from the dead)

**Hebrews 6:1-2 **
Now these are the elementary teaching about the Christ, laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment let us move on from these things and press on to maturity.

(side note: notice that the elementary teachings of Christ has nothing to do with Him being God.)

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, “Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!”

In any case, as it appears this is puddyarchers last post, and probably mine for awhile as I go back to my real life, the resurrection of the dead is our hope, and an elementary teaching that most Christians (let alone most Universalists) have no idea or clue on how to address and what it really means.

Whether his pre-existence is due to the resurrection? It was most definitely in His ascention.

Ephesians 4:10
He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).

That includes time (the 4th Dimension) itself. He most definitely pre-existed when he ascended to fill all things.