Did Jesus die in our place?


#14

Let’s ask John Piper

50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die

  1. To absorb the wrath of God

  2. To free us from the slavery of sin

  3. That we may die to sin and live for righteousness

  4. To please His heavenly Father

  5. To achieve His own resurrection from the dead

  6. To show God’s love and grace to sinners

  7. To cancel the legal demands of the law against us

  8. To become a ransom for many

  9. For the forgiveness of our sins

  10. To provide the basis for our justification

  11. To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness

  12. To take away our condemnation

  13. To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation

  14. To bring us to faith and keep us faithful

  15. To give us a clear conscious

  16. To make us holy

  17. To obtain for us all things that are good for us

  18. To heal us from moral sickness

  19. To give eternal life to all who believe in Him

  20. To deliver us from the present evil age

  21. To reconcile us to God

  22. To bring us to God

  23. So that we might belong to Him

  24. To give us confident access to the holy place

  25. To become for us the place where we meet God

  26. To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end

  27. Become our High Priest

  28. Free us from the futility of our ancestry

  29. So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God

  30. To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves

  31. To make His cross the ground of all our boasting

  32. To enable us to live by faith in Him

  33. To give marriage it’s deepest meaning

  34. To create people passionate for good works

  35. To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love

  36. To create crucified followers

  37. To free us from the fear of death

  38. So that we will be with Him after death

  39. To secure our resurrection from the dead

  40. To disarm the rulers and authorities

  41. To unleash the power of God in the Gospel

  42. To destroy hostility between the races

  43. Ransom people from every tribe and nation

  44. Gather His sheep from around the world

  45. Rescue us from final judgment

  46. Gain His joy and ours

  47. So that He would be crowned with glory

  48. To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good.

  49. To learn obedience and be perfected

  50. Become a sympathetic helpful priest


#15

I’m glad you appreciated Brother O’Shiro, Dave. I hadn’t found out that he died until today, and so I had a time of grief. Interestingly, when the Baptist Church hired him, they thought they were getting an Irish man (O’Shiro). I think some of them were a little shocked at first to discover that he was Japanese.

Michael, the New Testament doesn’t give all those reasons for Christ’s death. And some of them don’t apply.

Take #9 for example: “For the forgiveness of sins.” If Jesus’ death were necessary for the forgiveness of sins, then how was He able to forgive sins while He walked this earth prior to His death?

True, that expression is found in many TRANSLATIONS. For example:

But that little Greek word “αφεσις” (aphesis), though It might mean “forgiveness” in some instances, it more often does not. The verbal form can mean “to leave” or “to forsake”. For example Acts 13:38 perhaps should read “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you for the forsaking of sins.” Or perhaps “freedom from sins.”

And here is a passage whose meaning would be ludicrous, if “αφεσις” were translated as “forgiveness”:

The captives don’t need forgiveness; they need freedom. The oppressed don’t need forgiveness; they need liberty.

Virtually every translation has something very similar to the NKJV:

In the following passage, consider how much more sense the reddened words make when translated “freedom from sins” instead of “forgiveness of sins.” This is Paul talking to his Jewish brethren:


#16

Even if that’s true about forgiveness John Piper and others who believe in Penal Substitution believe in freedom from sins. Indeed, it’s on the list I gave from John Piper. Yes Christ died for the benefit of expiating and cleansing and freeing us of our sins. This happens to a large degree when we come into faith union with Christ and are crucified. According to John Owen:

Of course, the cross is across time and not time bound. So ego puncturing can happen tomorrow even though Christ was slain some 2000 years ago. For some, being crucified with Christ happens daily or over a period of time. I may agree with you about forgiveness. If our sins are blotted out and remembered no more then there’s nothing to forgive.


#17
  1. The Penal Substitution Theory (Jesus dying in our place):

Jesus died to appease the wrath of an angry God.

But the reason he died “to appease the wrath of an angry God” i don’t think is really biblical , more like a church doctrine perhaps associated with eternal torment. Take away that reason and “dying in our place” doesn’t sound that different from “for our benefit” as i see it.


#18

St Michael said: Yes persistence in well-doing is necessary to gain immortality and “eternal” life. Continuing to practise evil results in affliction and anguish. But present this to anyone who has subscribe to the Penal Substitution Theory, and they will immediately accuse you of “works righteousness” or “trying to get to heaven by good works.” They are blind to the fact this this NT teaching of deliverance for sin and self, by the grace made available through Christ’s death, is the means by which “eternal” life is granted

St Michael said, Let’s ask John Piper :smiley:

50 Reasons Why Jesus Came To Die

*All Right ST Michael, not necessarily knowing which position you have taken, I’ve taken a considerable amount of time to counter what Mr. Piper has alleged. My response is in the parentheses :laughing: And I have to say that I have not read the book but am just responding to what ST Michael has said the book has said, though it makes for great debate non the less * :laughing:

  1. To absorb the wrath of God (I agree that the wrath of God is totally taken away by Christ)

  2. To free us from the slavery of sin (Christ is the Atonement for Israel and in total, the nations. He took away the sin of the world!)

  3. That we may die to sin and live for righteousness (Our dying to sin is a temporal condition in 2017. In Jesus’ time they needed to make a decision about the Messiah so they could escape the coming wrath.)

  4. To please His heavenly Father :smiley:

  5. To achieve His own resurrection from the dead (Not sure what this means)

  6. To show God’s love and grace to sinners (Love and grace is ultimately realized when we understand the total redemptive value of Christ to the Israelites and thus the rest of humanity)

  7. To cancel the legal demands of the law against us (the problem is that all Calvinist’s want to cancel all legal demands by saying only certain ones are chosen)

  8. To become a ransom for many (Ransom for Israel, and thus the atoning work for all humanity)

  9. For the forgiveness of our sins (yep, through Jesus all of the sin problem with God was taken care of. Be advised that we will still sin in the temporal /fleshly realm)

  10. To provide the basis for our justification (Yes, Christ is our justification. We need to do nothing. He has done it all

  11. To complete the obedience that becomes our righteousness (NO NO NO HE IS OUR RIGHTIOUSNESS)

  12. To take away our condemnation (It goes without saying Christ took sin upon himself)

  13. To abolish circumcision and all rituals as the basis for salvation (duh)

  14. To bring us to faith and keep us faithful (Christ wants all to love their neighbors as them selves)

  15. To give us a clear conscious (when we understand what Christ has truly done, and the scope of the sacrifice and gift, we can truly have peace)

  16. To make us holy (I have a hard time being holy, and I am thankful that I don’t have to be because of Christ)

  17. To obtain for us all things that are good for us(yes we benefit from following Christ’s teachings)

  18. To heal us from moral sickness (good luck with that)

  19. To give eternal life to all who believe in Him (a seven hour old baby that dies, a mentally challenged person, a tribal person that has never heard of Christ, are we really saying that some how God is going to turn His back on them?)

  20. To deliver us from the present evil age ( First of all, All of the New testament was written some two thousand years ago to people that were very far removed from our culture and understanding)

  21. To reconcile us to God (yepper, we through Christ are reconciled to God. Thank the Lord AMEN)

  22. To bring us to God (in Christ’s time he was sent as a prophet to warn the Israelites of their coming doom if they did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah.)

  23. So that we might belong to Him (We all belong to him. HE FREEKING MADE US)

  24. To give us confident access to the holy place ( Read Hebrews :laughing: )

  25. To become for us the place where we meet God (no, Christ Died so The promises to Israel could be fulfilled, and unfortunately, He also foretold of the coming calamity that was about to overtake the Jewish nation at that time.)

  26. To bring the Old Testament priesthood to an end (ABSOLUTLY)

  27. Become our High Priest (YES SIR)

  28. Free us from the futility of our ancestry (YEPPER)

  29. So that we would die to the law and bear fruit for God (so that the first century Jews would rethink their reliance on the law and realize Jesus was the real deal)

  30. To enable us to live for Christ and not ourselves (Jesus said , love your neighbor as your self. I’m not sure he ever said to live for him. Though Paul definitely had that slant)

  31. To make His cross the ground of all our boasting ( :question: it depends on what your view of the cross means to you)

  32. To enable us to live by faith in Him (actually, we just need to* understand *the Faith that God had in humanity to send us HIS SON to die so we can be reconciled to Him, thus our understanding has nothing to do with the reconciliation, but that it simply is a matter of ‘understanding’ that will change peoples lives)

  33. To give marriage it’s deepest meaning (no comment)

  34. To create people passionate for good works (what is one persons good works is another’s burden)

  35. To call us to follow His example of lowliness and love (yes yes)

  36. To create crucified followers (I have no Idea what this means)

  37. To free us from the fear of death (Oh God , if John Piper could ever believe tis for all of humanity there would be angels rejoicing in the heavens :laughing: )

  38. So that we will be with Him after death (we believe in the resurrection)

  39. To secure our resurrection from the dead .(yes, Christ did this, no need on our part to do anything. Christ was the total sufficiency for all of humankinds BS.)

  40. To disarm the rulers and authorities (not sure about this , I’ll get back to you)

  41. To unleash the power of God in the Gospel (my friend, the power has been unleashed, the new covenant has been instituted, The new creation is at hand no matter haw hard humans try to rebel against the fact)

  42. To destroy hostility between the races (ALL OF HUMANITY)

  43. Ransom people from every tribe and nation (ALL OF HUMANITY)

  44. Gather His sheep from around the world (this verbiage is indicative of the understanding that Christ was talking to first century Jews who were about to experience the wrath of God if they did not listen to Jesus)

  45. Rescue us from final judgment (that through Christ has already been accomplished)

  46. Gain His joy and ours (not sure what is meant)

  47. So that He would be crowned with glory (yes all the saints are crowed with glory, thus our admonition to follow the first century saints and martyrs to follow Christ)

  48. To show the worst evil in human history was meant by God for good. (I believe in free will.)

  49. To learn obedience and be perfected (okay, I agree to a point)

  50. Become a sympathetic helpful priest (Yes our life is to help others, to become servants, to die to self centeredness so others may live.)

So, I would welcome some (and I am sure many will come) criticisms that I have with St Michael’s portrayal of Mr. Pipers book.


#19

Maintenace,

I don’t agree with all of it just some of it. If you want to see my summary of what being crucified with Christ is see my post above the Piper quote. My point was that people who believe in penal substitution not only believe that God’s wrath was removed but also that our sins are cleansed and expiated.


#20

Cool, but you opened a door for dialog. When you post 50 reasons for anything, you get what you ask for.

Thanks, :smiley:


#21

:smiley:


#22

Thnx :smiley:


#23

The both/and position as I see it (as opposed to Don’s either/or) understands that Jesus saved his people from their sins (Mt 1:21) by the offering of Himself as ‘the Lamb of God’ i.e., on their behalf — as per Jn 1:29; 11:50-51; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10 et al.

BUT “his people” constituted Israel, not us. However, in consequence of Israel’s redemption did the reconciliation then flowed to all men — thus did all benefit — as was the divinely appointed intent (Rom 11:12, 15).

I’m not sure if Don’s caricature of the penal substitution theory is totally correct, but others who hold to it might be better placed to say.


#24

[size=140]Caricature?[/size]

Caricature—exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics

Did I do that?


#25

Sorry Don… “characterisation” is the better word.


#26

Actually, I thought that may have been the word you meant.


#27

Come on everyone, let’s have a dialog about the 50 points the famous preacher Mr Piper has put forth per ST Michael. :smiley: Please… this will be fun :laughing:

If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done. God loved his creation and did what he knew had to be done. :laughing:

There is love hovering here, there is love working, there is love from the Father. :wink:


#28

This question (if it is a question) seems to presume that God wanted people to suffer for their sin, and that He wanted His Son to die as a substitute for people, and so to suffer in their stead—that by taking out His wrath upon His Son, He was satisfied, so that He didn’t have take it out upon sinners.
I’m not sure that what I have described is what you mean, but notwithstanding, it is the false gospel that is being continuously proclaimed throughout the world.

What God actually wanted done through His Son’s death was to provide a means of enabling grace so that people could overcome wrongdoing and live righteously.

Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith:


#29

I don’t think… “that God wanted people to suffer for their sin” but that people were suffering on account and in consequence of their sin and in particular the SEPARATION wrought by the sin condition they were caught in (Isa 59:2). It was from this that Jesus worked deliverance ON BEHALF OF all.

Indeed… but this is one of the two wings that make the bird fly. Let me quote again from above…

What you have raised Don is completely legitimate BUT where its application is said to be made somewhat goes awry, IMO. Let me explain by quoting a key portion of the text you gave… “to purify for himself a people of his own” — ALL those texts you quoted demonstrating your point regarding “Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith” are all pertinent SPECIFICALLY TO the people called into godly service ON BEHALF OF others — just like Jesus. We find this demonstrated in not dissimilar language used by John, right here…

Those called were redeemed and purified by Christ to God out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation for the purpose of being His new kingdom of priests… aka Paul’s and John’s “new creation”. It was a high calling with high standards and faith needed to grab, grasp and cling to such, being… “a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.


#30

So Davo, if I understand you correctly, your belief is that Christ, through His sacrificial death, delivers us from the ongoing practice of sin on the one hand, and the natural consequences of sin on the other. If that is your belief, I concur.

However, that “two winged” belief does not imply penal substitution.


#31

We can spin the death of Christ any way we want, but at the end of the day, it was prophesied, and Christ himself knew what his fate was. I will be honest and say that I will probably never ever know the depth and meaning of Christ’s death. But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.


#32

Right. I don’t think any Christian disagrees with the fact that Christ gave His life for us.

The disagreement lies in what is means by “His life” and what is meant by that little preposition “for.” In all cases where it is written that he died “for” us, the Greek expression is “on our behalf” or “for our benefit.”

But in the one case in which the preposition is “anti” (in place of)—giving His life in the place of many—giving His life refers to His giving up of His life while He lived here on earth as a human being, by spending that to serve many people.

Nowhere is penal substitution taught in the New Testament.


#33

Paidion, I agree. There are many who teach that Jesus died in our place so that we don’t have to be righteous. To me, this is false teaching. I see it more like in the case of the Civil War. There were many that died and gave their lives to free others from slavery. We enjoy that freedom now because of their sacrifices. However,evil and sin still exist and will continue to exist as long as mankind is on the earth. So, if we do not pony up and continue in the ways of righteousness, giving our lives to the service of God, "the house leaks and decays " as it says in Ecclesiastes 10:18.