Did Jesus die in our place?

[St_Michael]

[maintenanceman]

Thnx

[davo]

The both/and position as I see it (as opposed to Don’s either/or) understands that Jesus saved his people from their sins (Mt 1:21) by the offering of Himself as ‘the Lamb of God’ i.e., on their behalf — as per Jn 1:29; 11:50-51; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10 et al.

BUT “his people” constituted Israel, not us. However, in consequence of Israel’s redemption did the reconciliation then flowed to all men — thus did all benefit — as was the divinely appointed intent (Rom 11:12, 15).

Heb 7:27; 9:14 …for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself… …who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God…

I’m not sure if Don’s caricature of the penal substitution theory is totally correct, but others who hold to it might be better placed to say.

[Paidion]

[size=140]Caricature?[/size]

Caricature—exaggeration by means of often ludicrous distortion of parts or characteristics

Did I do that?

[davo]

Sorry Don… “characterisation” is the better word.

[Paidion]

Actually, I thought that may have been the word you meant.

[maintenanceman]

Come on everyone, let’s have a dialog about the 50 points the famous preacher Mr Piper has put forth per ST Michael. Please… this will be fun

If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done. God loved his creation and did what he knew had to be done.

There is love hovering here, there is love working, there is love from the Father.

[Paidion]

If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done.

This question (if it is a question) seems to presume that God wanted people to suffer for their sin, and that He wanted His Son to die as a substitute for people, and so to suffer in their stead—that by taking out His wrath upon His Son, He was satisfied, so that He didn’t have take it out upon sinners.
I’m not sure that what I have described is what you mean, but notwithstanding, it is the false gospel that is being continuously proclaimed throughout the world.

What God actually wanted done through His Son’s death was to provide a means of enabling grace so that people could overcome wrongdoing and live righteously.

Titus 2:14 … who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:14-16

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ–by grace you have been saved–and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:4-10

For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are made righteous by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a means of mercy by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be righteous and the one who makes rightesous he who has faith in Jesus. Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. Romans 3:20-27

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Hebrews 12:1-4

[davo]

@Paidion

If you want to talk about penal substitution, why are you all so freaking against the son of God doing what the father wanted done. He came and did what had to be done.

This question (if it is a question) seems to presume that God wanted people to suffer for their sin,…

I don’t think… “that God wanted people to suffer for their sin” but that people were suffering on account and in consequence of their sin and in particular the SEPARATION wrought by the sin condition they were caught in (Isa 59:2). It was from this that Jesus worked deliverance ON BEHALF OF all.

@Paidion

What God actually wanted done through His Son’s death was to provide a means of enabling grace so that people could overcome wrongdoing and live righteously.

Titus 2:14 … who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith:

Indeed… but this is one of the two wings that make the bird fly. Let me quote again from above…

@davo

The both/and position as I see it (as opposed to Don’s either/or) understands that Jesus saved his people from their sins (Mt 1:21) by the offering of Himself as ‘the Lamb of God’ i.e., on their behalf — as per Jn 1:29; 11:50-51; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10 et al.

BUT “his people” constituted Israel, not us. However, in consequence of Israel’s redemption did the reconciliation then flowed to all men — thus did all benefit — as was the divinely appointed intent (Rom 11:12, 15).

Heb 7:27; 9:14 …for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself… …who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God…

What you have raised Don is completely legitimate BUT where its application is said to be made somewhat goes awry, IMO. Let me explain by quoting a key portion of the text you gave… “to purify for himself a people of his own” — ALL those texts you quoted demonstrating your point regarding “Through His death, Jesus made available enabling grace. This grace is appropriated through faith” are all pertinent SPECIFICALLY TO the people called into godly service ON BEHALF OF others — just like Jesus. We find this demonstrated in not dissimilar language used by John, right here…

Rev 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us a kingdom and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth.”

Those called were redeemed and purified by Christ to God out of every tribe, tongue, people and nation for the purpose of being His new kingdom of priests… aka Paul’s and John’s “new creation”. It was a high calling with high standards and faith needed to grab, grasp and cling to such, being… “a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.”

[Paidion]

lIndeed… but this is one of the two wings that make the bird fly.

So Davo, if I understand you correctly, your belief is that Christ, through His sacrificial death, delivers us from the ongoing practice of sin on the one hand, and the natural consequences of sin on the other. If that is your belief, I concur.

However, that “two winged” belief does not imply penal substitution.

[maintenanceman]

We can spin the death of Christ any way we want, but at the end of the day, it was prophesied, and Christ himself knew what his fate was. I will be honest and say that I will probably never ever know the depth and meaning of Christ’s death. But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.

[Paidion]

But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.

Right. I don’t think any Christian disagrees with the fact that Christ gave His life for us.

The disagreement lies in what is means by “His life” and what is meant by that little preposition “for.” In all cases where it is written that he died “for” us, the Greek expression is “on our behalf” or “for our benefit.”

But in the one case in which the preposition is “anti” (in place of)—giving His life in the place of many—giving His life refers to His giving up of His life while He lived here on earth as a human being, by spending that to serve many people.

Nowhere is penal substitution taught in the New Testament.

[LLC]

But we do know that the ultimate sacrifice is for one person to give his or her life for another.

Right. I don’t think any Christian disagrees with the fact that Christ gave His life for us.

The disagreement lies in what is means by “His life” and what is meant by that little preposition “for.” In all cases where it is written that he died “for” us, the Greek expression is “on our behalf” or “for our benefit.”

But in the one case in which the preposition is “anti” (in place of)—giving His life in the place of many—giving His life refers to His giving up of His life while He lived here on earth as a human being, by spending that to serve many people.

Nowhere is penal substitution taught in the New Testament.

Paidion, I agree. There are many who teach that Jesus died in our place so that we don’t have to be righteous. To me, this is false teaching. I see it more like in the case of the Civil War. There were many that died and gave their lives to free others from slavery. We enjoy that freedom now because of their sacrifices. However,evil and sin still exist and will continue to exist as long as mankind is on the earth. So, if we do not pony up and continue in the ways of righteousness, giving our lives to the service of God, "the house leaks and decays " as it says in Ecclesiastes 10:18.