Hi Joe… I didn’t mean for my post to sound overly personal. So perhaps that is your assumption based off your own beliefs OR your observation of others’ beliefs, and yes, I think there may be some truth to your assertion. BUT IF that is your own case COULD that not be what is throwing up these concerns you raise?
Yepper., But this starts to take away our reliance on traditional evangelical models of salvation, redemption and atonement. When we walk away from orthodoxy, as hard as it may be, we realize some other possibilities.
Just a thought.
God calls everyone to completely surrender to Him. I wrote about this in another thread but I will share it with you. Ego dissolves in surrendering and trusting God. Letting go and letting God have control. Instead of fighting against the flow of life we let go of control as we abandon ourselves completely to God. We navigate through life not control it. We usually have to hit bottom and shatter the ego before we surrender to God in humble trust that leads to obedience. In learning to let go we empty ourselves to be filled with the Spirit (word of God). This letting go and emptying the self is the goal in Buddhists meditation. It sharpens our focus to live in the now or moment. When we surrender we accept the past and future as the blood of Christ covers them both. With God in control the future is secure. For He promises to work everything together for good for those that love Him. And we love Him because He first loved us in His suffering death and resurrection. In confessing our sins and trusting God the past is blotted out and the future is secure because it’s in His hands. I have hope and am freed up to live in the present moment. One day at a time one moment at a time we are dependent on Christ as He secures our future because we love and trust in Him. He is the self-sufficient, all-knowing, all-powerful and all glorious one. I’m nothing. I’m powerless and depend on Him in a humbled and surrendered trust in His Divine Providence. In letting go I’m no longer in control but the sovereign God is. I no longer try to ego control life and other people. In surrendering to God’s control we surrender to the flow of life and live from the heart. We no longer try to manage everything. God is our manager. His omnipresence permeates everything as He is the guiding Spirit behind the cosmic evolution. We put our faith in Him. We trust His promises. We learn this in the first three steps of Narcotics Anonymous. It’s a process and takes time.
I appreciate this. And thanks for sharing.
@maintenanceman, I’m sorry that I wasn’t more clear as to what I was referring. I was talking about calling in life. Many of us agonize over what God has planned for our lives, trying to discover whether we should be, for example, a doctor, a cowboy, a maintenance man… I think that, while God may call some or many of us to a specific trade, in many other cases, God will be satisfied to use us in whatever trade we choose to pursue. I am not sure that God is as deterministic as we sometimes think he is when it comes to our life’s work and other things. I think that he often leaves these things up to us to choose on our own. Sometimes we choose well, sometimes very poorly, but he will bring good out of all of it. I wasn’t referring to the call to salvation, and from your correct and kindly put exhortation, I think that’s the way I came across. :oops:
I read an old book about surrender by Richard Rohr known as Breathing under water. In the first step, the task is to admit powerlessness. I find that the natural tendency of admitting powerlessness is accepting defeat and giving into more powerful injustices. I find for myself that I have been blaming others in calling them the oppressors. I have been angry with people in power who create situations where I have to choose one good at the expense of another good(or lesser of the two evils), and therefore setting up the situation where Im damned if I do and damned if I dont. The more I see it, the oppressor is nothing but an external manifestation of anothers ego. But the Egoic mind cannot help but see things in “either/or” ways where one good is sacrificed for another good.
The Bible says when you get angry don’t sin. But we are not to let the sun go down on our wrath. We are to let it go and trust God. Indeed, the beautiful fruits of the Spirit are:
Love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, goodness, and self-control. We love God because He first loved us. God opens up the eyes of our hearts to see and behold His beauty and be transformed by it. Not that we never mess up. But when we do God always convicts and restores the beauty of holy love to us. When I get angry I turn it over to God. But by the grace of God go I.
If we were to live we had to be free of anger. The grouch and the brainstorm were not for us. They may be the dubious luxury of normal men, but for alcoholics these things are poison. - Bill Wilson
Actually the Richard Rohr book was based on Alcoholics anonymous
It was based on his interpretation. I’m quite happy being powerless. Letting Go and Letting God in surrender deflates ego and therefore anger. God promises to work all my frustrating circumstances together for my good because I love and trust in Him. There must be a letting go, surrender as one empties the self. This is the goal of the Twelve Steps and Twelve traditions - to deflate ego and gain humility as one undergoes a personality change. Here’s an article on ego death from Wikipedia:
Hollytree, I’m glad you’ve found happiness. However, I just would like to say that just because “ego death” is the path to happiness for you doesn’t mean it is for everyone.
Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God
You’re right. Humility is for God’s children
I know for myself the biggest reasons I want to surrender to God are to be free from slavery from egoism and its constant judgmentalism, power over, dualism and insubstantiality. But I dont think I can do this through my own intelligence. I tried non-dual thinking with the mind, and it worked out so badly.
12 Steps &12 Traditions Step Two, p.30 by Bill Wilson
By their example they showed us that humility and intellect could be compatible, provided we placed humility first.
Hollytree, are you implying that a person isn’t humble unless he has “ego death”, and that I’m not one of God’s children?
There’s good insights here Joe
Absolute humility dissolves ego. ~~ David R. Hawkins, M.D., Ph.D.
I have actually done quite a bit of research on consciousness beyond the Ego. I first learned about this from Eckhart Tolle when I began to realize that reason alone cannot give satisfactory answers. Then I also came across Richard Rohr, who teaches similar concepts, but I find easier to understand as he comes from a Christian background.
I have understood how the Ego can be a massive burden. Since I find the mind only can comprehend arbitrary facts, the conscience is this nag guilting me over not fitting socio-cultural ideals, and the animalistic motivation for subjective pleasure.
CPC seems to be very hyper-dispensationalist and hyper-calvinist-ic. Martin Zender is a kneeslapper adherent of an example but I can somewhat agree with his more recent “absolute vs relative” dichotomy between God’s reality and man’s. Ernest L. Martin and L. Ray Smith are more of my ilk in terms of what seems to be a more (OT & NT) Scripturally based, deterministic yet compatiblist (equal parts synergistic and monergistic) viewpoint:
e.g. God being ultimately responsible for man’s salvation through Christ but mankind being no less accountable in their pursuit of salvation through Christ, with every thought, word, and deed going under review at either the Bema Seat/Dais of Christ or the Great White Throne Judgement. In summary, man may not have what we understand as libertarian “free will” but he undisputably has “free choice,” and will give an account for the stewardship of his decisions.
Sorry Cindy, I understand you perfectly. First of all, you of all as an admin should know of my idea of salvation… (if you scour the threads.)
But like you said, the idea that God is individual and unique to each of us, much like he made each of us unique and individual, is an intriguing idea. My point is that uniqueness is maybe what the God of Creation was or is looking for. Not being pigeonholed into a thought process or a given line of ‘need to think this way’ is an interesting thought. Really it has little to do with your idea of salvation, I just mentioned salvation, atonement and redemption as a segue to a different sort of looking at things.
Just a thought.
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/201303/201303_086_demonization.cfm - currently dealing what I believe to be the unattended reality of this topic, especially in my personal walk