The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Do you believe in penal subsitution?

Alec, I just read “Mirrors.” What a wonderful homily! Thank you for sharing it with me.

The homily reminded me of the famous conversation with St Seraphim of Sarov and one of his disciples. St Seraphim was instructing him on how to acquire and grow in the Holy Spirit:

Fr Kimel said:

Thanks for posting that. I wasn’t familiar with it and it’s just glorious! :smiley: (And I’m glad you enjoyed “Mirrors”)

  1. Invents a system that makes God appear tyrannical and unjust.

  2. Has to explain that.

  3. Reminds everyone that God is holy.

  4. Thinks that resolves the issue.

It doesn’t.

I recommend The Dogma of Redemption by the Orthodox Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, written in the early 20th century. Remember George MacDonald refusing in his sermon “Justice” to expound his own theory of Christ’s atonement? When I first read this book by Khrapovitsky, I was immediately struck by the thought that this was quite possibly the same as MacDonald’s unshared theory.

It is only 40 or 50 pages long. It at least used to be available for free online. If that’s not the case anymore, I can send a pdf to anyone interested. Just send me a PM. :slight_smile:

Is there any chance we could have a discussion on some of the passages that people use to point to the traditional notion behind penal substitution? Passages like the start of Romans 8, Galatians 3:13

Jony,

That would be great. If you like, go ahead and start one – or if you’d rather someone else did it, let me know and I’ll put one up. :slight_smile:

Depends what passages people would like to discuss. It would be better to start off a thread on an individual passage than start a general one.

Does anyone have any particular verses or passages that they personally think would be good to go through and discuss?

Romans 3:25-26

Well I’m pretty convinced of some aspects of what are term the ‘New Perspective’ on Paul, explained in brief summary here:

thepaulpage.com/the-shape-of-justification/

And in light of that this is how God’s deals with the problem and His faithfulness to His covenant and His people in light of the affliction of death (where dikaiosuné often translated righteousness has a wide meaning of covenant-faithfulness, mercy and loving-kindness, justice and so on, and has the faithfulness of God in particular view) by the faithfulness of the Messiah who represents and is Israel (after His resurrection He opened the Scriptures and explained to the disciples everything through the OT that referred to Him, or as the ancient creed Paul sites put it’s ‘Christ died according to the Scriptures’ the whole Scriptures not just some prophecies, it is all about Him) fulfills the call to faithfulness and to complete to renewed call of Adam to in Abraham to become fully human (with Christ taking and sharing our humanity Christ takes on our humanity and completes through our brokenness the call and project of humanity to become the image and likeness of God, so Pilate announces ‘behold the man’) and as the just one is the one who sharking our death to ransoms us from the power of death and brings through the cross and resurrection the promised forgiveness of sins and release from death and return from exile and into life (and resurrection to come). And our faith and faithfulness into the Messiah and to Him (and the marks of baptism and the eucharist for Paul as a regular practice at least) is what justifies us, that is marks us out as being in Christ, and one of God’s covenant people rather than the works of Torah (circumcision, food-laws, certain feasts etc), those markers that had marked Jew from Gentile (to both pagans and Jews) did not really make someone out as a true covenant member of Abraham’s family, but only faith into and faithfulness to the Messiah and the grace of God and the ransom from death found in Him.

Hi Nightrevan, haven’t finished reading the article, but wanted to say thank you for sharing :slight_smile: