The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Do you believe the Bible is infallible? If so, why?

Theology
#395

So glad you brought that up Bob. Corporality, communally, family and particular ancestry were all ever-present, prevalent and front and centre in the ancient world’s cultures and reality… so much more so than our own strongly individualistic post-modern age. So, speaking of assumptions… something often read right over when it comes to the believers of Corinth is the absolute strong likelihood of the deeply Hebraic roots and presence in this early Christian community. The language of the book itself gives evidence to this; listen to Paul’s words here and seriously ask yourself… what sense this might have made in the ears of bona fide gentiles — methinks, as per the evidence the bulk of these believers knew their ancient story lay right here…

1Cor 10:1-5 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Remember… this is far away Corinth, not Jerusalem AND YET this language is full-on Israel’s story, i.e., the Corinthian’s story! What real sense or impact was Paul’s exhortations having on genuine foreigners? IF such was the case it would be no different than us claiming ownership of Israel’s actual history was our own story… evangelicalism reads right over the obvious. And in case you think I’m just inventing stuff or stretching credulity, or this is a bit of “a tall order” then consider these other texts relative to this thought from Acts, .i.e. the EARLY church…

Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Cf. 2:5; 18:10

The Diaspora WAS the bedrock of the early church beyond Palestine and its subsequent spreading success; that in conjunction with ease of commerce courtesy of the empire-traversing Roman roads that carried the gospel message, and of course the then common Grecian world/trade language. No doubt all divinely orchestrated for the Bible’s “ends of the ages” AD30—70 era.

#396

Davo,

That was an especially articulate to the point rebuttal! I’m sure you are correct that even these carnal Corinthian converts had a much more corporate sense of identity than my American outlook assumes (and Jewish Paul’s text certainly shows that he held that view and deeply recognized that identity of Christians with Israel).

It may well be that I too much project my own sense of the crass problem of death among loved ones (expecting an imminent Parousia) and too easily assume that the kind of heretical folk Paul writes here are not so animated by your more sophisticated concerns about being raised out of the old covenant, etc.

Thanks for amplifying on an important part of the argument.

1 Like
#398

As per what’s already well attested in the bible.

#399

If you go beyond the idea of biological death and the subsequent Resurrection, as Most Christians understand, You will find a great understanding of universal reconciliation.

Good luck qaz

#401

To throw another idea into the game -NT Wright has made a pretty good case for Paradise being our place until his coming.

#402

Hmmmm

#403

I’m outraged by that remark, Chad! :rofl:

#404

I am outraged that you are outraged.

#405

What the Bible attests is that Jesus was the first to be raised from the dead in the sense of a true resurrection.

(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

All others who were “raised” from the dead were resuscitated.

Those whom Jesus “raised from the dead” (such as Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days) died again. Jesus never died again, and when we receive our true resurrection, we will never die again. The resurrection body is the same body, but yet a changed body. This mortal must put on immortality!

2 Likes
#406

You must be right, since that’s what I told Davo also :wink:

#407

Here’s a hint about Paradise from Tom Wright, I’ll link to the article. Let us know what you think.

"He continued: “Our culture is very interested in life after death, but the New Testament is much more interested in what I’ve called the life after life after death – in the ultimate resurrection into the new heavens and the new Earth. Jesus’ resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will ‘awake,’ be embodied and participate in the renewal. …That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God’s presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ’s kingdom.”

Wright, whose 2003 book, “The Resurrection of the Son of God,” received widespread acclaim in the Christian community, says many people have been confused about what happens at death by Jesus’ statement to a thief who was being executed next to him.

He explained: “There is Luke 23, where Jesus says to the good thief on the cross, ‘Today you will be with me in paradise.’ But in Luke, we know first of all that Christ himself will not be resurrected for three days, so ‘paradise’ cannot be a resurrection. It has to be an intermediate state. And chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation, where there is a vision of worship in heaven that people imagine describes our worship at the end of time. In fact it’s describing the worship that’s going on right now. If you read the book through, you see that at the end we don’t have a description of heaven, but, as I said, of the new heavens and the new Earth joined together.”

Fascinating!!

And a note from Kermit Zarley:

Matthew reports in Matt. 12.38-40 about Jesus, “Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, ‘Teacher, we wish to see a sign from you.’ But he answered them, ‘An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth.’” Jesus obviously did not refer to his dead body since it would not be buried in the earth but lie on a ledge in a tomb. So, Jesus must have been talking about his soul, saying it literally would be in the heart of the earth between the time of his death and his resurrection. And the “three days and three nights” is a Semitic idiom referring to “third day,” implying that he would not be there any longer since he would be raised from the dead on the third day.

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#408

Surely you are aware of all or at least most of the resurrections attested to in the bible? If they were resurrected they experienced “consciousness” to that fact.

I’m not sure how you conclude so-called ‘soul-sleep’ from the bible… what texts mention this?

#409

Dave, I’m probably too agnostic on such items, but is the implication of Wright and Zarley that we go at death to a worshipful location in the heart of the earth?

#410

i’m not sure about the ‘heart of the earth’, as I’m looking around for a possible idiom that would explain it.

#411

The bible makes absolutely NO mention ANYWHERE of so-called… “true resurrection”.

This arbitrary distinction you are trying to draw between “resurrection” from death and “resuscitation” from death is at best a stretch and at worse misleading, and NOT supported by any texts at all… particularly so in the current context of 1Cor 15, consider…

1Cor 15:22, 36, 45 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. … Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. … And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The Greek word for “made alive” and “life-giving” is ζωοποιέω zōopoieō and is equal to… to quicken, make alive again, cause to live, vivify aka to resuscitate or resurrect. Not yet convinced? Consider this evidence…

Psa 71:20 LXX You, who have shown me great and severe troubles, shall revive me again, and bring me up again from the depths of the earth. Cf. Jn 5:21

To “bring me up again from the depths of the earth” IS clear resurrection language EQUIVALENT TO “revive me” as per resuscitate or resurrect. There is NO equivocation as to ‘the death’ in view… death is death and all too real; so too the restoration, revival, revitalisation, revivification, resuscitation aka resurrection back to the life to follow.

The question then remains… from WHAT was Jesus… “the first to rise from” as per Acts 26:23? Again… Jesus’ resurrection was not from mere DEATH per se (like a few others) but more precisely… from “DEAD ONES” in accordance with the Greek text, i.e., old covenant Israel… “dead in trespasses and sins”. Jesus WAS the first of the firstfruits of Israel’s covenant quickening aka resuscitation/resurrection; Jesus himself being “the resurrection and the life” to all Israel.

#412

Just Israel?

#413

As always and as I’ve noted ad nauseam… Israel first — remember Wright, right?

#414

Well yeah, I remember Wright - is he wrong about this paradise thing?

#415

Davo, you appear to argue that all ‘resurrections’ are the same and thus to reject Paidion’s view that Jesus’ is different. But is he not correct that all other Biblical accounts of bodies being raised to life assume that body and person will still be subject to death, whereas the presentation is that Jesus’ resurrection is victorious over such vulnerability?

And in your interpretation that “rise from the dead” (ones) means rise out of the old covenant of Israel, do you mean each time Jesus says, I will rise from the dead on the third day, disciples should hear that as he expects to rise out of old covenant Israel rather than to rise out the state of those literally dead?

#416

Well, we’re actually not told, are we… there is much speculation, and I don’t mind that as some of it can be interesting, but again in terms of what the bible actually says… well??

So, Jesus aside, who we know didn’t die a second time BECAUSE of his ascension, there seems to be a few options for all else who were duly resurrected according to the bible…

  • They subsequently died again, which in NO WAY minimises the actuality or factuality of the prior resurrection. To me this seems the most probable, BUT must cause no end of angst or cognitive dissonance to the evangelical fundamentalist futurist BECAUSE…

  • Sticking strictly and literally with the text, such a proposition can NEVER BE because… “it is appointed for man TO DIE ONCE and then comes the judgement!”

  • IF said resurrected subsequently died A SECOND TIME must this have been for them… “the second death” — what a cruel hoax!

  • Another option is that at some future point and unreported they themselves were raptured… thus NOT dying ‘a second time’. Believe it or not, even some full prêterists actually favour this (I don’t) in trying to cajole sympathetic futurists, suggesting these ones along with the rest were raptured “in the air” at the Parousia… too full of holes to even go there IMO.

  • There may also be other considerations I haven’t yet struck?

Jesus’ resurrection was indeed unique in that He alone was prophetically promised and subsequently fulfilled… not to suffer decay in Hades — and all that went with that.