Do you believe the Bible is infallible? If so, why?

[hollytree]

Jesus was Holy not mere human love. His love is a holy love. He is light (holiness). Light is His essence. Holiness. Jesus was an outcast, instigator of conflict, disrupter of unity. A violent Jesus who resolutely makes a whip to forcefully drive moneychangers (bankers) out of the Temple, over-turning their tables (John 3:15). Before, his disciples went out without a money belt, bag or sandals, and lacked nothing. But now, they are to bring a money belt and bag; and if they lack a sword, they are to “sell their cloak and purchase one” (Luke 22:35-36). Jesus the so-called pacifist instructing his followers to buy a sword? It would be as if today he advised purchasing a gun. This Jesus warns his disciples that he did not come to bring peace to earth, but division (Luke 12:51). Not peace, but a sword. Because of him, son will turn against father, daughter against mother, and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. Even a person’s enemy will be a member of one’s own household (Matt. 10:34-36).

To quote Robin Parry in “Four Views on Hell”:

His love is a holy love, and holy love is not soppy, fuzzy love, but a persevering love that cannot be compromised. God’s love can even manifest at times as a severe mercy. "His is a love of cauterizing holiness and of a righteousness whose only response to evil is the purity of a perfect hatred. ~~ page 113

[Hermano]

Sodom’s situation was LIKEWISE as had been Noah’s before… fully of God. “ From heaven ” is classic Jesus, meaning… from God! — Mt 3:17; 21:26; Jn 3:27 et al

-No doubt rain came from above in the Flood of Noah.
-No doubt fire came from above on Sodom and Gomorrah.

However, Jesus certainly did not say these came from God! We now know that his unchanging Father is agapē (1 Jn 4:8,16): goodwill, benevolence, charity.

On the other hand, “the god of this age“ (2 Cor. 4:4, whom you don’t even recognize exists) is not to be ignored or underestimated: the whole world lies in his power (1 Jn 5:19). He and other unclean spirits have demonstrated their ability to supernaturally kill, steal, and destroy—

• In Job we see that Satan travels "to and fro upon the earth and up and down upon it,” destroying via sickness, “natural” disasters, and humans
• Pharaoh’s magicians performed miracles
• The Antichrist and false prophet will perform miracles
• The Scriptures speak of counterfeit signs and wonders
• The Church Fathers recognized Satan’s influence on nature, via, e.g., “natural” disasters (see specific quotes here by searching for “QUESTION 24: IS SATAN INVOLVED IN EVERY EVIL OCCURRENCE?”)

—and the devil should no longer be confused with God, since Jesus, who exactly represents God, spelled things out in John 10:10—

“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”

[davo]

—and the devil should no longer be confused with God,…

It is ONLY YOU Hermano in denying the actual texts who then wreaks such confusion… NONE of the confusion you claim is in any such texts. For example… you’re the one claiming Elijah’s actions were incited and wrought by Satan… the text PLAINLY shows what occurred was confirmation he was Yahweh’s prophet, NOT Satan’s prophet as you would have it — there is nothing more to say other than you are just being DISHONEST.

I notice also you’ve remained deathly silent to the FACT that as I pointed out to Randy… your position fully undercuts and undermines the Passover — and then by logical extension all that is linked with that.

[Paidion]

Lk 17:26-29 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

How is this supposed to prove that God sent it? Simply because it came from heaven? If you saw a meteorite coming from heaven and landing on the earth, would you presume that God sent it? “Heaven” doesn’t necessarily mean the dwelling place of God; it more frequently refer to the sky.

Well no Paidion, you’d better count yourself out of that crowd because actually, no, you don’t believe that… “ everything which Jesus said, is true ” — as you are on record as typically dismissing the likes of…

WRONG! I do indeed believe everything Jesus said.

Rev 2:21-23 And I gave her time to repent ( Lk 13:3, 5 ) of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Somebody named “John” who wrote Revelation, had a vision.You cannot establish doctrine based on a vision.

Lk 22:36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

What is that supposed to prove? That Jesus commanded His disciples to fight after clearly saying that He didn’t do such!!! I don’t know why He asked each of His disciples to buy a sword. But clearly it wasn’t for the purpose of fighting. Otherwise, He wouldn’t have said that two swords were enough!

Mt 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.

Do you think He was saying that He came in order to start wars within families? Don’t you understand that He was speaking figuratively? He was saying that He was bringing a sword of division within families, because some would accept His Lordship, while others would reject it! His very next sentence is:
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Clearly He was speaking about the fact that when some family members became His disciples, that would turn the rest of the family against them.

Given your own slap-stick approach to the bible WHY don’t you consider it just as legitimate to call into question… ‘ God is love ’

So where does your non-slaptick approach lead you? That God is NOT love?

— like you have little to no qualms in besmirching the veracity of Scripture as illegitimate as it suits your own doctrinal ends — why now be so selective when there is as much credence ( none ) as anywhere else?

WHAT A BUNCH OF BALONEY!

[davo]

Lk 17:26-29 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

How is this supposed to prove that God sent it? Simply because it came from heaven? If you saw a meteorite coming from heaven and landing on the earth, would you presume that God sent it? “Heaven” doesn’t necessarily mean the dwelling place of God; it more frequently refer to the sky.

Given that Jesus is recorded by Luke as uttering these words above I’m thereby referring to Jesus’ use of the term “from heaven” meaning fully from God, as per the likes of…

Mt 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Clearly from heaven is indicative of God’s voice.

Mt 21:25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’

Blind Freddy can see EXACTLY what Jesus says and means here!

Jn 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.

Even John knew and understood the terminology… no, he wasn’t grasping at the shy!

Jn 6:32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven.

Again Paidion… the might of the metaphor shows from heaven to mean from His presence etc.

Well no Paidion, you’d better count yourself out of that crowd because actually, no, you don’t believe that… “everything which Jesus said, is true” — as you are on record as typically dismissing the likes of…

WRONG! I do indeed believe everything Jesus said.

Rev 2:21-23 And I gave her time to repent (Lk 13:3, 5) of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Somebody named “John” who wrote Revelation, had a vision.You cannot establish doctrine based on a vision.

If that’s the best you offer for REJECTING Jesus’ words then fine, you should just own it like any other non-believer… but don’t make this FALSE claim that you believe all Jesus’ words when clearly you don’t… you are just bearing FALSE witness. And to try and reframe your excuse for NOT believing all Jesus’ words by claiming “doctrine” is just a joke — what John records were Jesus’ stated words of warning, i.e., Jesus wasn’t bringing ‘doctrine’.

But not only that… given you dismiss the testimony of Jesus according to the vision of John DO YOU LIKEWISE dismiss the teachings of Paul according to his visions of the risen Christ, and consequently all he received from Him?? Likely not… oh how convenient!!

Given your own slap-stick approach to the bible WHY don’t you consider it just as legitimate to call into question… ‘God is love’ — like you have little to no qualms in besmirching the veracity of Scripture as illegitimate as it suits your own doctrinal ends — why now be so selective when there is as much credence (none) as anywhere else?

So where does your non-slaptick approach lead you? That God is NOT love?

Definitely not… but that where God in His own infinite wisdom determined, love was sometimes tough — consider Calvary, i.e., God sent His Son!

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Hermano’s theology brings to mind, this YouTube video:

And I started to ponder this question. And if I invited folks, like Davo, Paidion and Bob - to a dinner party. And I behaved like Captain Picard. Who would best behave like Mr. Data?

[Hermano]

Hermano:

—we remember the following confrontation about God’s true nature in Luke:

Luke 9:54-56 (KJV)
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

I would argue that in this Luke passage, the disciples were being influenced by Satan in wanting to kill people (as had been Elijah before them), not God.

No doubt you would foolishly argue this, BUT to declare their wrong spirit, i.e., heart attitude was borne of Satan is about as credible as YOUR FALSE CLAIM in attributing your same Satanic machinations to the prophet of God, as you say… “ as had been Elijah before them ”

Yes, Elijah was a prophet of God, who sometimes did satanic things. He had some anger issues–like Moses, like many of us. In his ability to distinguish the voice of God from the voice of Satan, he was hit-and-miss sometimes, like the rest of us.

Did you read that Hermano?… “ the fire of God ” — NOT fire of Satan BUT fire of God!

I would argue that the plagues that afflicted Job’s health, his family, his servants, and his animals were from Satan, not God:

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” Job 1:16.

I would argue that anytime fire comes “from heaven” to kill people, it is not from God, but from Satan–even if it is said to be from “God.”

We now know, in light of the NT, that God is unipolar, not bipolar. God is love (1 John 4:8, 16). We now understand that the unchanging God is not about condemning, but saving (John 3:17).

And Jesus clearly spelled out what distinguishes God from the devil in John 10:10— Satan kills, steals, and destroys, whereas the unchanging God (perfectly represented by Jesus) only seeks to gives abundant LIFE.

Further, we now know, in light of the New Testament, that the rebellious angel Satan has the power of death, not God:

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— Hebrews 2:14.

And that death is an enemy of God, which, after Satan is judged, and after the death of death in the lake of fire (“the second death”), will come to an end, and be seen no more:

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Cor. 15:26.

[Hermano]

To deny the Passover as Hermano’s position does is toxic for the Gospel… in fact it obliterates the it, i.e., Christ’s sacrifice has NOTHING to stand on.

I believe that at the Passover, the Lord greatly blessed and saved His people from the destroyer, Satan, through lambs’ blood, obediently applied in faith by the Israelites–blood that anticipated the perfect Blood of Christ, “the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). The blood was not to deflect an angry God, but an angry Satan.

In the same vein, God made provision for us through His Son’s blood at the cross, saving us from a wrathful devil, which we receive and apply by faith in our own lives today, even the doors of our hearts.

The Christus Victor position on the atonement has been likened to a story in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, by C.S. Lewis, regarding the death of Aslan.

By his sin against his family, Edmund (humanity) forfeits his life to the wicked Queen (Satan), because there was a Deep Magic of justice that allowed her to take it.

However, Aslan the lion (Jesus) loves Edmund, in spite of his betrayal, and so offers himself up as a sacrifice in Edmund’s place. The legalistic Queen thinks that killing Aslan will allow her to rule Narnia unopposed, so she accepts his offer. (Legalistic people are like a hammer, and everyone else to them is a nail.) But she doesn’t realize there is an older, deeper magic than justice: the magic of self-sacrificial love. As a pure and innocent victim, Aslan overcomes death, breaks the Stone Table (i.e., the stone tablets of the law), and frees Edmund. (A tip of the hat to Greg Boyd.)

[maintenanceman]

I believe that at the Passover, the Lord greatly blessed and saved His people from the destroyer, Satan, through lambs’ blood, obediently applied in faith by the Israelites–blood that anticipated the perfect Blood of Christ, “the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world” (Rev. 13:8). The blood was not to deflect an angry God, but an angry Satan.

In the same vein, God made provision for us through His Son’s blood at the cross, saving us from a wrathful devil, which we receive and apply by faith in our own lives today, even the doors of our hearts.

The Christus Victor position on the atonement has been likened to a story in The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, by C.S. Lewis, regarding the death of Aslan.

By his sin against his family, Edmund (humanity) forfeits his life to the wicked Queen (Satan), because there was a Deep Magic of justice that allowed her to take it.

However, Aslan the lion (Jesus) loves Edmund, in spite of his betrayal, and so offers himself up as a sacrifice in Edmund’s place. The legalistic Queen thinks that killing Aslan will allow her to rule Narnia unopposed, so she accepts his offer. (Legalistic people are like a hammer, and everyone else to them is a nail.) But she doesn’t realize there is an older, deeper magic than justice: the magic of self-sacrificial love. As a pure and innocent victim, Aslan overcomes death, breaks the Stone Table (i.e., the stone tablets of the law), and frees Edmund. (A tip of the hat to Greg Boyd.)

[davo]

Yes, Elijah was a prophet of God, who sometimes did satanic things. He had some anger issues–like Moses, like many of us. In his ability to distinguish the voice of God from the voice of Satan, he was hit-and-miss sometimes, like the rest of us.

What a load of unscriptural rot!!

Further, we now know, in light of the New Testament, that the rebellious angel Satan has the power of death, not God:

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— Hebrews 2:14.

“In light of the New Testament” — Really? You should maybe try reading the end of the NT story, you know… that little portion AFTER Hebrews that shows this…

Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

And as for your attributing the work of God in the Passover to the work of Satan… I’m less sure Greg Boyd would be happily tipping his hat in your direction — but who knows, as you prove… there’s a lot of whacky rationale in fundamentalism claiming truth.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

It must be remembered…that when I present my theory, that Z-Hell (1, 2, 3)…is the most probable, end-times tribulation scenario…the Christian prophets and visionaries I presented, attribute the cause to Satan.

However, I am also very “open-minded”. It could also be a science run amuck… or science run amuck, in conjunction with Satan.

How much power does Satan possess?

[Hermano]

[hollytree]

and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb ~~ Rev. 6:16

he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ~~ Rev. 14:10

They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory. The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds. ~~ Rev. 16:9 - 11

So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia. ~~ Rev. 14:19

[hollytree]

There are many different types of love and hate in the Bible. Ecclesiastes 3 tells us there is a time to love and a time to hate. Jesus tells us to love our enemies. While some of the psalms express hate towards God’s enemies. Can we love and hate at the same time? If love is the disposition to seek the good of someone else and hate is opposition to the values and plans of someone then it is possible to both love and hate the same person. I can hate someone like Adolf Hitler for example in the sense of opposing his plans and being disgusted by his character and actions, while at the same time desiring his conversion or change of heart. Thus, I can both love and hate Hitler at the same time. I don’t think Jesus wants us to merely hate someone like Hitler. For He tells us to love everyone including our enemies. He speaks against pure hatred by telling us to love.

[hollytree]

Hate comes in different degrees and intensity in the Bible in different contexts. Sometimes it simply means “love less” other times it’s stronger in the sense of abhor. We see this where the Bible speaks of God hating sin and sinners:

There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community - Proverbs 6:16-19

It’s not only the sins God hates but also those who do them. The Bible also says God is love. It doesn’t say He is ONLY love but He is love. If love is the disposition to seek the good of someone else and hate is opposition to the values and plans of someone then it is possible to both love and hate the same person. God can hate Adolf Hitler in the sense of opposing his plans and being disgusted by his character and actions, while at the same time desiring his conversion. Thus He can love and hate Adolf Hitler at the same time.

[Hermano]

“ In light of the New Testament ” — Really? You should maybe try reading the end of the NT story, you know… that little portion AFTER Hebrews that shows this…

Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Am I to take you to mean that the Author of Life is actually about hell and death?

Keys are emblems of authority. Jesus has already defeated Satan, hell, and death. What can be confusing is that the consequences of his victory are taking time to be distributed and manifested in the cosmos:

At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. Hebrews 2:8b.

But the spread of his victory, to be facilitated by the Church, is a process whose final outcome has been assured:

Matthew 13:33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”

Again, Jesus has already overcome Satan, hell, and death. He is not threatening anyone with Satan, hell, and death; rather, he is warning them.

As I said elsewhere:

Gehenna?

Matthew 10:26-31 (NIV)
26 “So do not be afraid of them [MEN] , for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those [MEN] who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one [SATAN] who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

“Both soul and body.” Sounds like hell/Gehenna/Hades was more than merely a garbage dump outside the city wall for trash and dead bodies. Rather, it is a place with long-term implications as a postmortem POW camp, followed by both it (hell/Gehenna/Hades) and death being thrown together into the healing lake of fire (Rev. 20:14), some day in the future.

Furthermore, there are many shades of “fear.” We are to reverence God, yes. But be terrified of Him? No.

The devil is the one with the power of death, not God. (Hebrews 2:14, “him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil” ). So Jesus is not warning readers about His Father, but about the devil.

Please prayerfully consider the powerful argument for this interpretation in:

"Is God the one who “destroys both body and soul in hell?”

Any time anyone (including Bible prophets) asserts that God is vindictive and bipolar–killing, stealing, and destroying people–we are seeing a mistaken conflation of God with Satan. The unchanging God is not a two-headed monster, He is unipolar agapē.

Hades and death will eventually be cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14): and that will be the ‘death of death.’ Our God, who is a consuming fire–of love–will burn up all the cords of lies, and free those people from their bondage, so that they can hear and respond to the invitation to come into the City whose gates are never closed, to freely take the water of life (Rev. 22:17).

[hollytree]

The psychologist Jordan Peterson explains on why being harmless isn’t virtuous. The virtuous person is a controlled monster.

The hero has to be a monster. But a controlled monster. Batman was like that. If your harmless you’re not virtuous. ~~ Psychologist Jordan Peterson

Be caring and compassionate but summon the monster within when you need to. Don’t be harmless.

[davo]

Any time anyone (including Bible prophets) asserts that God is vindictive and bipolar–killing, stealing, and destroying people–we are seeing a mistaken conflation of God with Satan.

Meh… by your assessment “God is vindictive bipolar” is pretty much just standard fare for most contrary non-believers of the biblical text… you however take it one step further in declaring where the text says ‘God’ YOU SAY it actually means ‘SATAN’ — you then ratchet it up even further having the audacity to claim much prayer AND the Holy Spirit has revealed this to you. To borrow a phrase from your compatriot…

WHAT A BUNCH OF BALONEY!

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

Hum! Perhaps I should re-translate the Bible. Whenever I see the word, God…I should substitute the word Zombie, from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3)…especially when something bad, is taking place - in the Bible!

[saintbabs]

I have a different take on this. Perhaps because I have used the BFBS NT with critical apparatus I am aware of the variant readings of the Koine text. What I think God has done is far more clever than simply preserving the text unchanged.

The bible is not inerrant but it is fault tolerant. Anyone who has ever been involved in designing a telephone exchange will know that you can’t have every line working perfectly all the time. What you can do is mitigate the problems so that if you don’t get through, then hang up and try again you’ll often complete your call.

The bible is the same. If you read the whole thing looking for themes you’ll find love for God and other people, rejoicing, God’s goodness, repentance, hope and may more. If you concentrate on a few verses here and there you’ll quite possible latch onto something at best silly and at worst dangerous.

You only have to see how the flat-earthers have used the word “firmament” to argue that there is a sort of giant pyrex mixing bowl covering the Earth, and that space travel is therefore impossible. In this sense the bible is very fallible. On the other hand there are so many passages that agree on love that we can infallibly conclude them to be true.