The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Does "all" in John 12:32 refer to drawing all God's wrath?

Agreed. God is not glorified by lying lips - He is Glorified by a confession from a heart filled with love for him - a true confession of Christ as Lord and Savior - just as you say.

*Aaron37, since you are possibly digging a little deeper, evidenced by your work on Jn 12:32, I am laying out a list of verses you might also want to dig into.

Here is a list of scripture references that expound on the truth of the Reconciliation of All Things. This compiled list, includes the key words in each scripture verse. Please look them up and report back with an argument for or against each scripture being a proponent of UR. We can discuss one at a time if you like. *


1:31 every - good
3:15 bruise
12:1-3 all families
13:16 dust
14:19 possessor
14:22 possessor
15:5 stars
18:18 all - nations
18:25 judge - right
22:17 stars - sand
22:18 all - nations
24:3 God - heaven - and - earth
24:60 thousands of millions
26:4 stars - all - nations
28:14 dust - all - families
32:12 seed as - sand - cannot

9:29 earth
19:5 all - earth - mine
32:13 seed as - stars

14:21 all - earth - filled
16:22 spirits - all flesh
27:16 spirits - all flesh

10:14 heaven - heaven of heavens - earth - all

2:11 God heaven - and - earth
3:11 Lord - all - earth
3:13 Lord - all - earth

14:14 devise means-not expelled

8:43 all people
8:60 all people

19:19 all - kingdoms- know

29:11-14 all

20:6 none - able - withstand

9:6 all

12:10 all mankind
33:18-24 pit - ransom

9:8 judge - righteousness
16:10 not leave - hell
24:1 earth - they
25:10 all - paths - mercy - truth
32:1-2 imputeth not
33:4-8 all
33:11-15 all
46:10 exalted - heathen
47:2 all
47:7 all
48:2 whole
50:12 world - fullness
59:13 ruleth - ends
65:2 all flesh - ends
65:5 all flesh - ends
66:3-4 enemies - submit - all
67:2 all - all
67:7 all - all
68:18 rebellious - dwell
68:31 unto
69:34 every thing
72:8 dominion - all
72:11 dominion - all
72:17 dominion - all
72:19 dominion - all
82:6 all of you
82:8 all nations
83:18 all - earth
85:1-6 forgiven - covered
86:9 all nations - worship
89:11 fullness
96:1 all - earth
97:5 Lord - whole
97:6 all see
98:3 all
98:4 all - earth
103:9-14 not always chide - father
103:19 ruleth - all
105:8 thousand generations
110:1 enemies - footstool
115:3 pleased
119:64 full - mercy
126:1-6 turn again
130:3 who - word - all
130:5 who - word - all
130:8 who - word - all
135:6 pleased
138:4 all - kings
139:7-12 there
143:1 faithfulness
145:9-17 satisfiest - all
145:21 all flesh

16:4 for - purged
16:6 for - purged

2:2-4 all nations
6:3 whole earth
9:7 zeal - perform
11:9 knowledge - cover
14:24-27 purposed
24:22 after - visited
26:29 judgements - learn
40:5 glory - all flesh
42:3-4 judgement - truth - till
45:7 evil - all
45:12-13 evil - all
45:22-25 all - every
46:10 declaring - end - pleasure
46:11 purposed - do it
49:26 all flesh
51:6 not - abolished
52:10 all - see
52:15 shall - see, shall - consider
53:6 iniquity - all
53:11 travail - satisfied
54:5 God - whole earth
54:7-8 mercies - kindness
54:13 all - taught
57:16 not contend - neither - wroth
60:5 shall come
61:11 as - so - all nations
63:17 made - err
65:1 sought - found - not called
66:18 I - gather all
66:23 all flesh

3:12 not keep anger
31:31-34 new covenant
32:27 all flesh
32:36-42 evil - good
33:22 sand - seed

3:31-32 not cast off

16:48-55 took - away - good - return (Matt 10:15; 11:23; Jude 6-7)

2:35 stone - filled
7:13-14 all people
7:27 all serve
9:14 evil - righteous - all
9:24 end of sins - reconciliation

1:10 as - sand - cannot
13:14 ransom - redeem
14:4 love - freely - turned

2:28 all flesh

4:1-5 many nations - every man
7:18-19 delighteth - mercy

2:14 knowledge - cover

2:11 all - every
3:8-9 determination - pure language

2:7 all nations

14:9 king over all

1:11 Gentiles - heathen


1:21 shall save
3:12 thoroughly
5:19 in
5:21-26 till
10:15 more tolerable
11:22-24 more tolerable
12:18 shall show
12:20 judgement unto victory
12:21 Gentiles trust
12:32 world (eon)
12:41-42 judgement - shall condemn
18:8-9 better
18:14 not the will
18:23-35 till he should pay - so likewise
22:44 enemies - footstool
23:13-35 till ye shall say

3:29 eternal (eonian)
6:11 more tolerable
9:43-37 better
9:49 every one shall
12:36 enemies - footstool

1:68 redeemed his
1:77 knowledge - remission
2:10 all people
2:14 peace - goodwill toward
2:30-31 salvation - all people
3:6 all flesh
3:17 thoroughly
6:35 kind
9:56 come - to save
10:12-14 more tolerable
11:31 queen - south
11:32 men - Ninevah
19:10 seek - save - lost
20:38 all live unto him
20:43 enemies - footstool

1:3 All things
1:9 every man
1:29 taketh away - sin
3:16 loved - world (mankind)
3:17 world - saved
4:42 Saviour of the world
5:22-23 all - honour - son
6:33 life unto - world
6:37 all - shall come
6:39 lose nothing
6:45 all taught - heard - learned - cometh
6:51 life of - world
12:32 will draw all
12:47 to save - world

1:24 knowest - all
2:17 all flesh
2:34-35 foes - thy footstool
3:21 restitution of all things
3:25-26 all - blessed - every one
4:24 made all
7:49 made all
10:15 hath cleansed
10:28 any man
10:34 no respector
10:35 every nation
10:36 Lord of all
11:9 hath cleansed
13:47 ends of the earth
14:15 made - all things
17:24-31 all
24:15 hope - just and unjust

2:5 righteous
2:6 every man
4:13-18 heir of the world - all the seed
5:6-19 ungodly - while - reconciled- free gift - all men - life
8:20-22 made subject - not willingly - shall - whole creation
8:32 for us all
8:35-39 who - neither - nor
9:9-26 purpose of God
10:12 Lord over all
10:20 found - sought me not
11:11 fall - salvation
11:12 fall - fulness
11:15 casting away - reconcilinc - world - receiving - life
11:26 all - saved
11:29 without (god’s) repentance
11:32 all - unbelief - mercy upon all
11:36 of - through - to - all things
14:10-12 all - every - every one
15:21 shall see - shall understand

3:11-15 saved - by fire
4:5 every man
5:1-5 destruction - flesh - spirit - saved
8:6 all things
10:26-28 earth - and the fullness
11:3 head - every man
11:7 man is image of God
11:12 all things of God
12:6 all in all
12:7,11 every man
15:22 for as - even so
15:23 every man
15:25 all enemies
15:26 enemy - destroyed
15:28 God - all in all
15:38-43 every seed - dishonor
15:49 as we - we shall
15:51 all be changed

5:14-21 reconciling - world - not imputing

3:8 all nations

1:4-11 purposed - gather together - all
2:5 hath quickened
2:14-16 reconcile
3:9 all - all
3:15 whole family - named
4:6 all
4:8 led captivity captive
4:10 fill all
4:13 we all

2:10-11 every
3:21 subdue all

1:16-17 all - for him
1:20 reconcile all
1:28 every man perfect
3:11 all

3:12 all

2:8 Wicked - destroyed

1:15 to save
1:18-20 may learn
2:1-6 all
4:10-11 all men - command and teach
6:13 God - quickeneth all things

1:9 hath - purposed - given - before

2:11 all men
2:14 all iniquity
3:4 toward man
3:5 regeneration - renewing
3:6 which he shed on

1:2-3 all
1:13 enemies - footstool
2:8 all - subjection
2:9 every man
2:10 all things
2:14 destroy - devil
2:17 reconciliation
3:4 built all
8:10-11 not teach - all shall know
8:12 no more
9:26 put away sin
10:10 once for all
10:17 no more
11:12 innumerable
12:10-11 chastened - profit

3:18-20 unjust - spirits - disobedient
4:6 preached - to - dead

3:9 not willing - all

2:2 propitiation - sins - whole world
3:5 take away
3:8 destroy the works
4:10 propitiation
4:14 Saviour of the world

1:6 unto (until)

1:5 washed - our sins
1:7 every eye - they - which pierced him - all
3:9 I will make - come - worship - know
4:11 all - for - pleasure
5:13 every creature
7:9-10 no man could number
10:6 created - the things
11:7-13 kill them; they - rejoice; fear fell; gave glory - God
11:15 kingdoms of - world - become
14:6 preached - to every
15:1 last - filled up
15:4 all nations
15:8 plagues - fulfilled
16:7 true and righteous - judgments
20:13 judged every man
20:14 death and hell - cast into - lake of fire - second death
21:5 all things new
22:2 healing of the nations
22:3 no more curse
22:12 my reward - to - every man
22:17 come - freely


*Note:This list was taken some years ago from Harold Lovelace’s site. *

Yep, those are the ones. (There is a different word, {suro}, that means basically the same thing, but even more forcefully.)

Not quite sure why you listed them. Certainly, in no case is the Son found to be helkoing the Father’s wrath down onto Him! But I wouldn’t deny such a thing in principle based on its lack of application in regard to one particular word. Or even two: the Son is not found to be suroing the wrath of the Father down onto Himself either. :wink: But perhaps the same idea is expressed elsewhere in other terms tantamount to having to forcefully pull that wrath down onto Him. I’ve been studying the scriptures for 30 years or so, and I don’t recall any such thing, but I learn new things every day, so…

Not that I disagree about men being unable to seek God on their own without God’s help; but 6:45 doesn’t say anything specifically about God drawing man by means of the scriptures. Nor by the Word of God. But in 12:32, the Word of God Himself says that He shall draw all persons (or all things) to Himself; and there are probably other places where the Logos/Memra of God is mentioned as being the means by which God draws all to Himself.

As a general rule, though, since the Son Himself is the Word of God (as in both the Johannine and Lukan prologues, for example–Luke’s sources were certainly not servants and eyewitnesses of the scriptures!) it is better to check first to see if the term may be referring to the Son Himself, when it is found in either the NT or the OT. (Sometimes contextually it cannot be, of course; but often it very well can be.)

Consequently, I have no problem in the least affirming that God draws man by the Word of God (also by the Spirit of God). But I suspect from your context you only (or primarily) mean the scriptures. (Certainly I agree about that, too; but I don’t put God in an evangelistic box by only or primarily restricting His witnessing activity to the scriptures.)

Or existence at all for that matter! But we could have a very large discussion over whether the Holy Spirit ever quits exhorting sinners to wash their robes in the river of life that flows from the always-open gates of the New Jerusalem, and to drink without cost, and to so obtain permission to enter the city and eat of the leaves of the tree of life. (i.e. RevJohn indicates the Spirit never quits, and expects the Bride to keep evangelizing with Him. :wink: ) I will only point out for now that neither at Mark 3:29 nor in any other account of the unpardonable sin, does the Holy Spirit quit dealing with us.

In other words, not the judgment of Jesus. :wink: Not by God anyway. He was about to be judged by the world, who ironically was about to cast out the Chief of this world. The statement is effectively the same as the parable of the landowner’s son, over in the Synoptics. (Which, by the way, would have been given not more than 24 hours prior to this scene, historically.)

But, that is beside the point. I demonstrated from the Greek text why neither {pantas} nor {panta} (whichever one was original) can be considered grammatically linked to {krisis}. Even if I accepted your version of penal substitution (which as an orthodox trinitarian theist I reject; also on exegetical grounds, not least of which is that Jesus testifies in GosJohn that the Father is always with Him and never abandons Him), your interpretation is totally at odds with the grammar of the verse in Greek. This is not something to be lightly ignored or brushed aside as irrelevant.

At best, you are totally reading this into the verses, against the grammar; not reading it out of them.

Simply repeating what you said before, without addressing why I have argued this cannot be true, is very quickly going to turn into a non-discussion.


Topic spamming Aaron37 with several dozen brief scriptural references for “discussion”, is not appropriate for this particular thread, which is supposed to be about the proper interpretation of John 12:32. Send that to him in private mail. If you want to make the list public, set up a thread for it.

(You can either remove it voluntarily or I’ll remove it later at my convenience after giving you an opportunity to do so yourself.)


It isn’t always wrong to read beliefs developed elsewhere into the scriptures. (Though I think it’s ironic that Aaron37 starts off this thread by talking about how people have “spiritualized” the word {pantas} to mean all persons. Isn’t the Bible a spiritual book, the spiritual meaning of which can only be understood by spiritual people etc? :wink: But actually people translate it that way due to Greek grammar.)

The problem in this case, aside from whether Aaron’s version of penal substitution (or any version) is correct, is that there is no way to read that idea into this verse without going totally against the Greek grammar; whereas drawing “all people” to Himself has plenty of thematic support not only in GosJohn but elsewhere. Even so, that idea could stil be fairly said to be read into the verses, too, from contextual support elsewhere.

That being said, Aaron37 isn’t doing exactly wrongly by looking around to see what {pantas} might be referring to contextually. {krisis} is nearby, and closer than the references to the Greek seekers after all. His attempt is incomplete, and fatally founders on the shoals of the grammar (as I and others have argued), but it wasn’t a bad idea to look that way. He would have done better to present it as a question for discussion, along with his argument (so far as he knew to present it), than to announce “we” were wrong about the translation. In fact, I think I’ll change the title of the thread to something more descriptively accurate.


There’s a pretty good chance, in fact, that Sonia has read this extensive commentary on the use of the term “propitiation” in the NT. Have you?

(I know I have. :mrgreen: I thought I should mention it in case you feel like replying to me as you did to Sonia. Quoting 1 John to me is going to very quickly get very technical; and it isn’t going to solve your major grammatic problem with interpreting John 12:32 the way you want to.)


you said: In other words, not the judgment of Jesus. :wink: Not by God anyway. He was about to be judged by the world, who ironically was about to cast out the Chief of this world.

Aaron37: I don’t believe this verse is talking about the world judging Jesus, but Jesus taking the worlds judgment unto himself. Here’s why:
John 12:31

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Jn. 12:31: There is still a future judgment of the world coming where the wicked will be separated from the righteous and cast into the lake of fire . This verse is referring to the fact that the sins of the world were about to be placed on Jesus and He would suffer our punishment (Rom. 6:23).

Jesus suffered God’s punishment upon our sins, so there is no reason we should have to suffer for them too. The price for sin has already been paid by the only one who could fully pay it and that is Jesus. All Jesus asks of us to make His redemption ours is faith in Him (Rom. 10:9).

Jn. 12:31: The only reason Satan ever had any right to become a prince or rule over us was because we yielded ourselves to him through sin (Rom. 6:16). Since Jesus “bare our sins in His own body on the tree” (1 Pet. 2:24), Satan no longer has power or authority over those who accept Jesus’ gift of salvation. Satan has been “cast out” – stripped of any power he had. Now he can only deceive, and if we fall for his lies, we stop God’s blessings in our own lives.


I know what propitiation is without reading any article on it. The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him. 1John 2.2 " And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” An important part of Christ’s saving work includes deliverance from God’s wrath that the unbelieving sinner is under, because Jesus’ atonement on the cross is the only thing that can turn away God’s divine wrath.

I agree with this, and with the rest of what you wrote, BUT I’d also say that until one understands a passage in it’s context, it’s a bad idea to go galavanting around scripture dropping meanings on it.



sigh. :unamused:

I would think that being from a pentecostal background you would be well versed in typologies. Those of such persuasion often tend to see the relevance of the feasts and passover and many other types in scripture.

I’m wondering how it is that you do not realize that John 3 is key to John 12:
As (S)Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must (T)the Son of Man (U)be lifted up;

Looking back at the event, Moses lifted up the sign of sin over Isreal and all who were drawn to it (looked upon it) would not die.

**My point being that just as the serepent being raised over Isreal was drawing people for salvation so it was that Christ raised over Isreal was DRAWING PEOPLEfor salvation. **

I even color coded it for you :slight_smile:
If you do not see this correlation then I’m wondering on what grounds you see passover? Pentecost? Ark of the Covenant? On and on and on…


So Christ didn’t draw all of God’s wrath on the cross - there’s sooooooooooooo much more wrath for soooooooo many people. Honestly, at this point, I’m not sure you understand what you arguing for…

No, that is not correct. Punishment is not wrath. Wrath is wrath. Punishment has a purpose, Jason. Even among his creatures. I realize that both you and BA come from the same background and speak the same language, but really, defend my position accurately or don’t try to defend or describe it at all. (Your exclamation point was noted.)

Frankly, it’s telling how you continue to confuse the two. I find very few direct statements from you (the sign of solid theology) in determining where you stand. Quantity is not quality. That’s not to say I don’t love and appreciate you - but I think your upbringing forces you into positions that are unsupportable without some major league tap dancing on your part. You are good at it.

Some of the direct questions one could ask of any theologian require only a yes or no answer to get a bearing on where that particular theologian stands. So let me ask of both you and your compatriot (BA) - yes or no:

Did Christ redeem mankind?

Your yes or no answer goes here: ___

I’m betting that you or BA cannot answer with a direct ‘yes’ or ‘no’. My bet is that you both squirm, shuffle and tap dance around the question. Prove me wrong.

Jason, I noted in passing your comment on my “rude” reply to BA/Aaron37 about “pantas.”

You’re quite right. I was rude. (I think that was the toking refer comment or his giving new depth to the meaning of the word shallow, or both!)

My bad. I have run out of patience with Aaron37 and let it affect my decorum on the site. My apologies to everyone, Aaron37 included, for kicking the furniture over. I think there are a lot of people on Aaron’s level, i.e., who don’t appreciate all the textual/linguistic/cultural issues that go into reading and interpreting the Scripture in responsible and mature ways. That in itself is nothing to criticize. People can learn if they humbly want to and then put forward the effort. I’d be rude all over again if I said I know that Aaron37 doesn’t possess this desire or readiness to learn. But it sure SEEMS to me that he’s not interested in learning. He SAYS “Show me where I’m wrong” and that LOOKS like open-mindedness, but in truth he’s not prepared to countenance (i.e., he can’t imagine) being wrong about this.

This conversation is not about the text or its grammar in spite of his saying it is. I mean, Jason, what open-minded individual who was sincere (I have to be careful not to be rude) in saying “Hey, show me where I’m wrong” could have any reason to doubt the meaning of “pantas” after your very thorough explanation? But everything you said was essentially i-g-n-o-r-e-d. It was ignored because Aaron37 can’t imagine a possible world in which he’s wrong about “all.” So evidence that works against his view doesn’t have to be ‘thought’ through r-e-a-s-o-n-a-b-l-y. It can be dismissed and one can go back to just pontificating, which is Aaron37’s MO (more rudeness, sorry).

Everyone can be grateful that the choice is not mine I suppose, but it seems to me that once someone has conclusively demonstrated that pontificating is his MO (that’s the important part), no respectful public forum would want to continue extending membership privileges to that person. But that’s just me.

I could be wrong of course about this being Aaron37’s MO. I’m just sharing my gut-level feelings here. And again, I do apologize to everyone, Aaron37 included, for being rude and for my part in bringing the quality of posts down. That’s not my MO either.

Hugs all around,

And no, Aaron37, I’m not unblocking you, so you can save yourself the effort of a reply. But I did want to apologize for my part in bringing down the quality of the board.


I had not realised from your posts that you made a distinction here.

Are you sayng that ‘wrath’ does not have a purpose? How exactly would you define “wrath”?

Perhaps this should be a new topic?


Yeah I was wondering that same thing myself. :slight_smile: I always kinda assumed that God’s wrath and divine punishment were basically synonymous (or at least inseparable), with God’s “wrath” referring to his disapproval of sin manifested in temporal judgments (or punishment) upon the guilty (e.g., Ex 22:24; 32:10; Num 16:46; Deut 29:23, 28; 2 Kings 22:17; Job 14:13; Isaiah 9:19; 13:9; Jer 7:20; 42:18; 44:6; Eze 9:8; 21:31; 22:20). This idea seems to be expressed in Romans 13:1-5 as well.


Yes. But your question is not a simple yes or no answer. Let me explain. Redemption is a process. There are steps in Redemption. In the mind of God it is not Christ who hung on the Cross, but it is the human race. God has redeemed man completely from every result of Adam’s treason through Jesus. Jesus paid man’s penalty. The judgment that was man’s fell upon Jesus.

God has done his part. Now man has to do his part to believe and receive it.( John 1:12) Let me explain. Being forgiven from sin is not enough.Your spirit must change from death to life. You must be born again. You have to be born again or regenerated in your spirit to be spiritually alive. There has to be a transformation of your spirit and that only comes by believing and receiving what Jesus did for you on the Cross. You go from spiritual death to spiritual life when you believe and receive Jesus’ finished work on the cross. ( John 5:24; 1 John 3:14) Once you are born again you have the eternal life Jesus died for you to have. Once you have eternal life the only step left is receiving your glorified body at the resurrection.

Btw, if you reject Jesus you die spiritually dead and go to hell.


I agree. God’s wrath is in his judgment. They are not separate.The wrath of God is simply his intense anger in judgment of sin.


I don’t deny the principle of Christ’s crucifixion drawing people for salvation. John 12:31-33 in context I believe was teaching the judgment that was due to the world fell upon Jesus by crucifixion. Not drawing all men to himself.