MM, you follow Tim King’s ministry, right? How do they explain all the NT passages that prima facie teach postmortem punishment?
Give me some examples?
No, not a trick question, but a question that has to be asked. We all in evangelical Christianity have pre conceived ideas, we believe that certain things have to happen on our part for the atoning work of Jesus to be fulfilling, My point is that Christ , who came from the real GOD was sent to deliver mankind from a position of separation from the real God…
Now many evangelicals will contend that this is not satisfactory, and thus the death of Christ is but a stepping stone to how we need to somehow accept the dictums of our GOD.
But my position is that if GOD gave his only son, that is good enough for me.
Well answered, Bob!
But those who believe “Christ did everything for us” and that nothing is required of us, will fight this truth with their last breath, and some of them will be ungracious in their attitude to anyone presenting it. Thank you for presenting it, anyway.
That is a bit low on the totem pole.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Galatians 5:19-21
Where pray tell do these particular verses tell of post mortem anything? prima facie? Good luck qaz.
I’m saying that God loves all and Christ died for all, but that there are conditions on how we experience God and his love that involve how we respond to God and God’s ways. So while Christ offered his life for Israel and thus in a sense for all the world, I don’t think he repealed the law of reaping what we sow.
The pantelist position has no bones with that at all, i.e., how the principle of sowing and reaping affects one’s walk through this life. What pantelism asks for is the textual evidence to the notion that evangelicals persistently peddle, i.e., that not meeting certain stipulated conditions equates or translates to some degree of postmortem hell, of varying proportions, apparently.
This is Chad responding to Paidion .
But Paidion is doing nothing, that the mainline Christian theologians and churches aren’t doing - in this regard. How can we prepare folks, for the coming tribulation and ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE - by being complacent?
“Letting go means to come to the realization that some people are a part of your history, but not a part of your destiny.”-- Steve Maraboli
Now THIS is a REAL bit low on the totem pole
Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 tell of post-mortem loss, and thus punishment, in the process of being judged and saved?
“Each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
In 1 Corinthians 3:9, we are told that one, likely the spiritual self, is metaphorically God’s building. i.e., " . . . you are God’s field, God’s building." Constructing that building would then be constructing the spiritual self, and this is the work referred to here. So if part of the building one builds is flawed and destroyed by the fire of judgment, that part of the spiritual self is flawed and destroyed by fire. That part represents the loss, i.e., the punishment, though one is saved.
Well, we’ve debated and conflicted at length before on several such texts often seen as warning of such judgments. I see some of them as post-Calvary and still future, and took you to see them as post-Calvary, but all completed in the first century.
Given that impressions of such texts differ, my own bias is that God does not essentially change, nor would his approach to dealing with us, and thus my default expectation of some continuity is that his ways (such as the reaping & sowing principle) of dealing with us and of pursuing righteousness in us need not be limited to “this life.” Thus, having that perception, I see the burden of offering clear textual evidence is on those who believe people’s death completely changes God’s historic approach and ends any prospect of experiencing judgment.
Well said, Bob!
All the big names I can think of in western Christianity had negative views of humanity: Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley. Did people in the east share their worldview?
I want to serve the true God of love
the Bibe doesnt spell things out eg the Trinity is not explicitly stated yet the Bible teaches it…same with UR…please open your mind.
I don’t see people as depraved…I cannot see the smiling cashier at the supermarket as ‘depraved’, nor the nice man who serves me at the Thai restaurant, nor the smiling young lady at the pharmacy…its sick to see others as ‘evil’ and ‘depraved’…its hard enough to love people without thinking they are evil.
I think this generous assessment is much closer to the true picture:
“The “glory of God,” is undoubtedly to be our end ; but what does this consist in? It means the shining forth of his perfection in his creation, especially in his spiritual offspring; and it is best promoted by awakening in these their highest faculties, by bringing out in ourselves and others the image of God in which all are made. An enlightened, disinterested human being, morally strong, and exerting a wide influence by the power of virtue, is the clearest reflexion of the divine splendor on earth, and we glorify God in proportion as we form ourselves and others after this model. The glory of the Maker lies in his work. We do not honor him by breaking down the human soul, by connecting it with him only by a tie of slavish dependence.
It is his glory that he creates beings like himself, free beings, not slaves ; that he forms them to obedience, not by physical agency, but by moral influences ; that he confers on them the reality, not the show of power ; and opens to their faith and devout strivings a futurity of progress and glory without end. _It is not by darkening and dishonoring the creature, that we honor the creator. Those men glorify God most, who look with keen eye and loving heart on his works, who catch in all some glimpses of beauty and power, who have a spiritual sense for good in its dimmest manifestations, and who can so interpret the world, that it becomes a bright witness to the divinity”
Hi Lancia,I think that for the most part this is talking about the end of a particular period of time. The Jewish understanding of Torah Law was about to be obliterated.
Having said that, I see glimpses of that same understanding in my day job. As people get older and deal with the difficulties that aging brings, some have loving family and friend around them and for some, their life has been a struggle because they have been, well less than congenial in their youth.
Just a thought.