That includes you and me, I suppose?
Hi Stef,
Glad you liked the article. It’s a bit long but does reflect the same issues that have come up here. If Pilgrim (John) weighs in and wants to get things back to the OP, I’ll move the relevant portions of this thread to your thread, Stef. (Or at least try. 
)
Dave, I do not mean to pigeonhole anyone. I think this “blind-eye” is institutional blindness. I once believed in XMAS too. I am not placing any form of guilt on anyone. Everything we see and believe is part of a faith journey, and it is not easily arrived at. I don’t believe we should force our views, or that we should condemn others for their lack of agreement. It is difficult to tread this fine line; as by disagreeing one (I) can sometimes appear to be condemning or chastising. A truth still needs to be told - even out of fear of being seen as self-righteous.
I didn’t know about most of this period mentioned in your article. I am just about to read over it more carefully. Very interesting; but they (the Puritans) still acted with a heavy hand in trying to force their views on everyone. I believe this is institutional thinking that only leads to problems.
Fair enough my friend.
Mind you, Steve, that many Christians object to the use of technology for reasons similar to why you choose to abstain from celebrating Christmas. That is, they consider it a means for perpetuating immorality, lassitude, and consumerism. And, indeed, technology does sometimes promote these things – as does Christmas. Just as you mentioned, “Technology has good and bad elements, and Christians need to discern which elements to observe and which not to.” Personally, I believe it is the same with Christmas – which obviously accomplishes much good, in addition to its drawbacks.
No, but Christians do sure enjoy McDonald’s. (I even saw my church’s youth pastor in the drive-thru today. 
) And from what I see at work at the ol’ Golden Arches, a Christian influence in a secular setting is often a welcome relief, even to non-Christians. I work with a little Baptist lady who spends 40 hours a week in the drive-thru, and I think she has some sort of McDonald’s Ministry going on. So many people know her and update her about their problems and concerns. And, man, did she get a lot of presents before heading off on her Christmas vacation! A bit off topic – sorry – but the point is that secular and sacred can coincide and even work together for good, I think.
So following this logic, should we abstain form using the calendar or lighting candles? Where does one draw the line between permissive and forbidden secularism?
I am not arguing for the abandonment of technology; so trying to make me guilty by some distant association is misleading.
IMO? Sure we should abandon church practices that are directly derived from idolatry and paganism… as the scriptures say: “Flee from idolatry” (1 Corinthians 10:14); “keep yourselves from idols” (1 John 5:21); “what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?” (2 Corinthians 6:14-16).
I am sure this is difficult for you; as so much of Catholicism is derived from idolatry and paganism. As for myself, as a previously confirmed Catholic, I have abandoned these practices once I found the idolatrous and pagan associations. I understand that you still want to pay homage to your church institution regardless of what corruption she partakes of. That is a choice we all have to make personally. You might want to have a read of The Shepherd of Hermas, and how worship of “the church” becomes the idolatry predicted for our times. People will never give up their churches… that is what Jesus encountered with the pharisees; they were addicted to their traditions. They would not forsake their corruptions and follow Christ. We are all confronted by these same archetypes.
At least some of these things are inherited from the Temple liturgy at Jerusalem. Puritanism has its own forms and rituals I think.
I do not mean to be misleading, but I do not think the association is all that distant. In my area at least, most Christians who abstain from Christmas celebrations also object to technology – and vice versa. The two, from my view, often stem from the same qualms about participating in perceived worldliness.
What does being Catholic have to do with celebrating Christmas? Last time I checked, it is a highly Protestant holiday, as well. Sure, it originated in the Roman Church, as did much of Christianity’s heritage, but Christmas is now far from a solely Catholic practice.
Be careful, Stef. Next thing you know you’ll be calling people “papists”. (Sorry, Stef, I couldn’t resist it) 
Christmas is celebrated in the Eastern Church also. Idolatry is more subtle than rites and celebrations. Did the puritans really stamp out idolatry? The same Parliament that outlawed Christmas in England also passed a law making Unitarianism a capital offence and Universalism an imprisonable offence. Is a war against beauty the same as one against idolatry?
We all have traditions - I think what Jesus encountered in the Pharisees was that they thought their traditions superior and thus they thought themselves spiritually superior.
Yes, and I think the far more greater danger than Christmas’ pagan origins is our culture’s current attitude of greed and consumerism around the season. For this reason, I am happy that my family has opted out of expensive gifts in favor of buying small trinkets and just helping one another out with general expenses. At the moment, I’m wrapping a box of assorted jelly beans for my dad, and my gift this year is a box of some lovely scarves I picked out on a shopping trip with my mom.
Nothing fancy all around–but fun.
I agree there Kate - and consumerism isn’t about enjoyment of beauty at all!!!
There are lost of Victorian hymns that dwell on a sentimental picture of Jesus meek and mild.These are a bit yucky. However, if - God became as we are, So that we might become as he is to reflect on God becoming helpless as a little child is not in itself a bad thing. God becoming a child is part of God taking our humanity and there are many Christian poems and paintings and carols that reflect on this mystery without a trace of sentimentality – ‘ The Word being wordless yet speaks a word to us’.
The light comes into the world and like a vulnerable flame it needs to be tended. Saturnalia is not the only root of Christmas. The Jewish festival of Lights that Jesus would have celebrated was also at this time of year.
Also the Orthodox celebrate Christmas on January 6th.
Too true, Kate! This is what really concerns me about Christmas as we experience it. Christmas decorations in mid-October? Gifts given because one “ought to” as opposed to love or gratefulness? The madness of “Black Friday” the day after Thanksgiving, which is actually a big shopping day for Christmas—this is all a concern for me… The induction of Christmas into the ranks of Mammon is far more concerning to me than its roots in Saturnalia. 
Well then, we should set an example of how to celebrate Christmas, for others to see. Kate’s way is a big step in the right direction.
Oh dear - for the first time this year Black Friday was introduced to the UK. One of the wonderful things about Christmas used to be delayed gratification. And people singing in choirs and rehearsing nativity and such like were so much part of Christmas - and still are and can be - all of which are creative activities rather than passive consumption.
Hi folks
Good thoughts here. As somebody who loves Christmas, I’ll throw my hat in the ring .
First off, I agree with Steve (alecf) in endorsing John’s statement in the OP that “God experienced humanity so that humanity might experience God”. Amen. The Incarnation is essential, and central to everything I believe. Not because Jesus came to earth so that he could die in vicarious sacrificial propitiation of God’s anger at our sins - I now find that doctrine both ridiculous and offensive. No, he came to show us the Father, because no-one has ever seen God, and it would be impossible for us to know him otherwise. (Of course, Jesus came to do lots of other things, including teaching, healing and defeating the powers of sin and death.)
So for me, the Incarnation and the birth of Jesus are more ‘worthy’ of celebration than Easter. (Although in his Christmas Carol Service address last Sunday my Dad said almost the exact opposite. I didn’t challenge him about it )
Does Christmas present an emasculated God? I’m not sure. I agree with Cindy - and GMac - that God is actually child-like in many important ways, and so the popular Nativity play image of him as gentle Jesus meek and mild doesn’t bother me - as long as it is not used to the exclusion of other, equally essential images of God.
Is it wrong to celebrate Christmas at all, given its pagan antecedents? Not for me. I don’t care about the pagan roots of Christmas - I celebrate Christmas a) to mark the Incarnation, for the reasons cited above; and b) as a holiday, time to spend with my family and loved ones. All the horrible secular consumerism of Christmas I would gladly hoover up and drop wholesale into a very large, very deep hole, along with all the advertising people responsible for all those execrable 'Christmas wouldn’t be Christmas without …" ads. (I’m with Bill Hicks here: “Anyone here in advertising? Please, just kill yourself.”)
And how can you not love Boxing Day? Cold turkey sandwiches, cold sausages and pickled onions, and The Great Escape on TV - a great British tradition. Heavenly!
All the best
Johnny
A Child He was, and had not learnt to speak,
That with His word the world before did make.
His mother’s arms Him bore, He was so weak,
That with one hand the vaults of heaven could shake.
See how small room my infant Lord doth take
Whom all the world is not enough to hold,
Who of His years, as of his age hath told?
Never such age so young, never a child so old
by Giles Fletcher
Hi Pilgrim
I think this poem of the nativity is a delight without being sentimental. It speaks of the same mystery of incarnation stated in the fine couplet you have quoted that has met with wide approval I think Christmas presents us with a paradoxical picture of God - of strength in weakness, eternity in time etc
O King of our desire whom we despise,
King of the nations never on the throne,
Unfound foundation, cast-off cornerstone,
Rejected joiner, making many one,
You have no form or beauty for our eyes,
A King who comes to give away his crown,
A King within our rags of flesh and bone.
We pierce the flesh that pierces our disguise,
For we ourselves are found in you alone.
Come to us now and find in us your throne,
O King within the child within the clay,
O hidden King who shapes us in the play
Of all creation. Shape us for the day
Your coming Kingdom comes into its own.