Does Julie think Jesus is God? How will Evangelicals react?

[Dondi]

For the record, I’m not convinced with the arguments against trinitarianism. I would like to share one other set of verses that leans me more toward the Trinity:

*And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.*

The first thing to note, of course, is the phrase “Alpha and Omega”. Once we establish the identity of this reference, we will get a clearer idea of who is speaking. This phrase hearkens back to the first chapter of Revelation:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

“Alpha and Omega”, being the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet is the equivalent to term “the first and the last” in Isaiah 44:6:

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god."

This speaks not only of His eternal nature, but also His exclusiveness to being God. There are no other gods besides Him. And no only this, but He apparently does not share in His glory:

*For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."*

As we keep that in mind, let us consider the term “the Almighty”. This is a clear reference to Almighty God (Gen. 35:11, ) and is connected to Jehovah (YHWH) (Exodus 6:3).

So there can be no doubt that this Alpha and Omega is YHWH, the Almighty God.

[size=150]B[/size][size=150]U[/size][size=150]T[/size], look at Rev 1:11-13:

*Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.*

This SAME voice that has been established as Almighty God appears to John in a description throughout the rest of the chapter as the glory of one like the Son of Man. And furthermore the SAME voice states:

*And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore*, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

So this Son of Man, who is called “the Alpha and Omega”, the Almighty God, tells John that He lived, then died, and behold lives forevermore. There is ONLY ONE PERSON who has ever risen from the dead and is still living. And if that is not enough to convince you that the identity here of Son of Man (aka the Almighty God) is Jesus Christ, you can reference in the Rev 1:13-16, with the description in Rev 19:11-16 (with the eyes as the flames of fire, and the sharp two-edged sword), as the KING of KINGS, and LORD of LORDS, the WORD of GOD!

So going back to Rev 21:6-7, the Alpha and Omega, who is Jesus Christ, will be to him "that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son, a direct reference to Ezekie 37:27, the covenanial God who will dwell in the tabernacle of His people.

Now if you don’t believe the book of Revelation, I don’t know what to tell you, but the inferences as rather strong pointing to one God, with Jesus Christ as that God.

[Cindy_Skillman]

Paidion, you’ve got me beat. Especially as that doesn’t happen here all that often. We did get down to -22 F, though I don’t know what it was in the wee hours. Some years are like that, but it usually starts later. Alas, we don’t have to go far to cut our firewood. probably 90% of the trees are dead and seasoned, all around us, from pine beetles.

Nice pic! Your wife looks like a sweet lady and you look like a blessed man!

[Paidion]

In connection with the Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 verses, you may wish to consider these articles:

angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Titus2_13.html

angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/2Peter1_1.html

I am not suggesting that this writer has the correct non-Trinitarian answers. Indeed, I think his explanation of Titus 2:13 is a stretch.
He correctly states that the NASB has the following translation:

…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus…

Notice where the comma is placed. He indicates that the “the glory of our great God and Savior” is Christ Jesus. That is, Jesus is the glory of God, the comma putting “Christ Jesus” in apposition to “the glory of our great God and Savior”. Of course, it is true that God is called our Savior many times. The phrase “God our Savior” occurs in I Tim 1:1, 2:3, Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:11, and Jude 1:25. However, it is probable that that NASB translators did not mean it that way. They probably meant that “our great God and Savior” is Christ Jesus.

However, the writer has a point concerning 2 Peter 1:1. He states that codex sinaiticus has “the righteousness of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
He also has a photo of the relevant verse in the manuscript with the abbreviation for “Lord” circled. Now I happen to have photos of the entire codex sinaiticus and went to the verse, and yes, it is “Lord” rather than God.

However, I also have transcripts of all NT passages from Greek papyri prior to 300. The passage occurs in papyrus 72. Mind you, this papyrus is dated from around 300, and so it’s a little late to suppose it necessarily corresponds to the orginal.

[lotharson]

I think I like this “heretic chick” (as she described herself).

It is a pity she is not ten years younger and single

[lotharson]

As for Jesus, I can believe He was divine (God’s temple) but it is hard for me to buy the concept he pre-existed eternally with the father because it seems clear that the synoptic Gospel writers did not hold that view.

[Eaglesway]

As for Jesus, I can believe He was divine (God’s temple) but it is hard for me to buy the concept he pre-existed eternally with the father because it seems clear that the synoptic Gospel writers did not hold that view.

If we agree that the scriptures cannot be broken, then- anytime there appears to be a conflict between on portion and another, the seam where the truth integrates is “further in” than we have currently been.

Therefore, the synoptic gospels and the gospel of John cannot be in any fundamental disagreement- nor Colossians 1 or Hebrews 1(He is before all things…All things were created through Him and for Him…through whom(Christ) also He(Father) created the worlds)

or the scriptures are broken and there is no authority within them.

My point is this. It is not clear. Whether Jesus Christ existed and in what form He existed may also be unclear- but any supposed fact that He did not pre-exist His incarnation/birth is certainly not made clear by statements of any kind in the synoptic gospels- unless perhaps you can show something that says otherwise in the gospels you are using as authority?

I am not an orthodox Trinitarian(co-equal/co–substantial/co-eternal) and I am not in particular disagreement with elements of several different views, but after years of study and meditation I have not seen anything “clear” against Jesus being pre-existent or even against His being co-eternal. Is their a Godhead discussion thread on the forum? I’d like to check it out. As this is an evangelical forum with a statement affirming the Trinity I would want to be considerate in discussing the topic.