Does Julie think Jesus is God? How will Evangelicals react?

[dirtboy]

The Person and Work of Christ:

**Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 112 AD
“There is one physician, fleshly and spiritual, begotten and unbegotten, God in man, true life in death, both of Mary and of God, first passible then impassible, Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Irenaeus (disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle - lived between around 115 & 202)
“Now it has been clearly demonstrated that the Word which exists from the beginning with God, by whom all things were made, who was also present with the race of men at all times, this Word has in these last times, according to the time appointed by the Father, been united to his own workmanship and has been made passible man. Therefore we can set aside the objection of them that say, “If he was born at that time it follows that Christ did not exist before then.” For we have shown that the Son of God did not then begin to exist since he existed with the Father always; but when he was incarnate and made man, he recapitulated [or summed up] in himself the long line of the human race, procuring for us salvation thus summarily, so that what we had lost in Adam, that is, the being in the image and likeness of God, that we should regain in Christ Jesus.”**

I don’t know how Jesus’ deity can be doubted. I’ve read tons of stuff, but Thomas called him “My Lord and My God”, Paul, “The fullness of deity bodily”, The Hebrews author (who I think was Priscilla!), “The EXACT representation of his very being” “The Word made flesh” “The Word was God”. There is much more, obviously, but given the fact that even in the early 100’s those who were close thought he was God. I know the arguments against, and some are good, but not good enough. I agree with Thomas that he was/is “My Lord and My God!”.

[Kelly_S]

Hey there old friend! (Julie)
Just wanted to say Hi and tell you I love you!
Could you email me your findings on this subject? I want to hear what you have to say. I want to discuss but, not before I understand what you are saying and why.
All love to you and your man!
Give Dave and Darcy a big hug for me next time you see them!

Love you all,
Kelly

[Alex_Smith]

After reading through all these posts this week and getting a feel for where people are at, I have decided not to engage in further discussion on the Trinity (as in, laying out my theories and how I arrived at them).

That’s a shame, as I’m still not clear what you believe What I had in mind for mid-December (after you’d finished school) wasn’t going to be a free-for-all discusion, but an interview by Jason.

There is so much information available on this topic and ultimately, each person must search it out for themselves and decide for themselves what makes the most sense in light of their relationship to God (of course, we should always continue to ask God for “sight” and understanding as well). We all come from unique angles and perspectives, and I don’t think further discussion is going to be all that productive.

It’s true each person must search things out themselves, however, I wasn’t expecting you to have to explain the entire field & history of the pros/cons of Trinitarianism, Modalism, Unitarianism, etc. I was mainly interested in just knowing your angle/perspective, even if you didn’t provide all the texts, reasoning, etc. behind it.

Part of it for me too is that, like my reason for writing Raising Hell and why I got to the point that I didn’t like discussing it before the book came out, it’s a very complicated topic–one that I could write another 300 page book on. It feels a little irresponsible giving summaries or highlights, rather than building my case, like I did in RH. And frankly, I don’t have the time or energy for that right now.

I understand it’s been a busy year for you

If any of you are still “worried” or “concerned” about my spiritual well-being after what I’ve shared, I guess that is how it is. I certainly hope it doesn’t affect your desire to share the message of RH with others, but I understand it might. However, I still believe God will put the message in the hands He wants it in to free people from the bondage to fear.

I’m convinced God is looking after your spiritual well-being & salvation, as He is for everyone else I think some people won’t mind what you believe about the Trinity, however for others I suspect they will assume the worst - as it’s unclear what your stance is (which is one of the reasons I think it would be beneficial to spell it out, even if you don’t provide proof for all the points - I realise you’ve already done this a bit in this thread e.g. making it clear you believe salvation is only through Jesus).

If you still feel it would be irresponsible, then obviously I don’t want you to go again your conscience.

[dirtboy]

Julie, I never got the impression that anyone was really worried about your “spiritual well-being” from reading at least most of this thread. The impression I got was that some were worried that your stance on the trinity would negatively affect the reception of your book, RH, namely, evangelicals. Nobody here thinks you would “go to hell” for having a different opinion about the nature of God. The message here has always been Universal Reconciliation, and since this is an “Evangelical Universalist” board, reaching Evangelicals is a concern of ours. My original gut reaction was that I was bummed out because there are evangelicals that I was going to give your book to (my brother, for one). However, they usually do their research and if they figured out that you were anti-trinity, it would disqualify the book in their eyes. That’s just a reality that we have to deal with when reaching out to Evangelicals. I realize that truth is truth, and if you think the trinity is not the truth you are not going to hold back. However, even if you are right, people usually can take only baby steps. For one who is reaching out to evangelicals, I personally wish you would have held off on the trinity for the sake of inroads your book could have on the evangelical community. But that is my motivation, not yours and I can’t expect you to act on my motivations. So I’m not saying you did wrong, it was just unfortunate for someone in our position who reach out to evangelicals. Keep on writing great stuff, and you are always welcome here! Just because some disagree with you, doesn’t mean that there is any hostility. We disagree here on many things and get along well I think.
Chris

[JulieF]

Thanks Chris. I did get the impression that people were concerned about my spirituality when they began making assumptions/conclusions about what I might believe (i.e. there are many ways to God, etc.) without even asking. As to people finding out about my Trinitarian views, I don’t think I have ever written about my views anywhere, save on what I thought was a private forum (Berean—which by nature of its name should be a safe place to chew on deeper complexities of the Scriptures). That is because I knew exactly what you said to be true…people need baby steps. Also, as much as I feel that the Trinitarian views were man-made and I disagree with them, I also admit that there’s still a lot I don’t know a lot about the nature of Christ and His relationship with the Father, and for now, I’m content with not knowing (not for lack of trying, mind you).

I also do not want to be reckless with my questions, thoughts, and beliefs. But they got posted here anyway, on a public forum, without my even being asked about it, with the title, “I’m concerned about Julie Ferwerda” or whatever the original title was. The current title seems about the same. I realize this is perfectly fair–I wrote it and these things happen. I am not sorry I wrote what I did. What I am sorry to hear is that you would be discouraged from sharing a book with your friends and family that could change their lives and deliver them from fear, all because they might not like other beliefs I have. I have many thoughts on this but suffice it to say, if God is truly sovereign, and nothing is lost, why such fear (on your part)? And if we are really all that “inclusive” of others, we’ve come so far in the love of God, why are we still marginalizing?

[SLJ]

Julie, I agree with Chris. Especially that no one here has been concerned about your spiritual state in regards to your opinion about the Trinity. It’s all about who we can recommend your book to. Trinity has been a frequently discussed topic here, and we don’t “excommunicate” people for disagreeing.

Sonia

[james.goetz]

Hi Julie, I have only casually looked at this thread because I am busy. But I know that universalism is commonly associated with both religious pluralism and unitarianism. These are the two biggest misconceptions that I typically face. For example, many people do not know that multitudes in the imperial church believed in both Trinitarianism and temporary hell resulting in universalism.

[Melchizedek]

I appreciate reading all your thoughts. I don’t have a lot of time for engaging the rest of this week but I will say one important thing to keep in mind is that when I wrote the comment (posted at the very top) to Westernlions, it is a very short paragraph on a very big topic. Perhaps that was a little irresponsible, I don’t know. It is easy to make 100 assumptions based on a couple paragraphs, but perhaps it is also good because it has opened a needed discussion.

Until you are able to hear my viewpoint and how I arrived at such, I will just say that for me in my understanding of the plan of ages, Jesus still has a crucial role as the ONLY Savior and the King of the ages. However, I now also believe that He is the prototype of what we are all becoming, which is why we are being conformed to His image and “made in his likeness.” He is the firstborn of many brothers. This is plainly stated in several places in Scriptures. I will also say that part of the misunderstanding for me was when I didn’t have a Hebrew perspective on things like the father/son relationship in the Eastern culture.

I would be happy to share my thoughts and studies with you all but not until my classes are finished mid December as I’m a full time student and I work.

I will say that I am a little surprised at the suggestion here by some folks that it is necessary or desirable to fit in with or be accepted by evangelical Christianity. As soon as you need approval from any group, I fear that you could lose your pure and simple devotion to the truth journey. If we are to continue to grow in our understanding, we will have to leave behind conformity and approval at all costs. This is demonstrated for us throughout Scriptures. It is more of a lonely journey. Ask Joseph, Moses, David, the prophets, Jesus, Paul, and the disciples. They will all tell you it was lonely and that they faced rejection time and again by their own people.

“rline,” thanks for all your encouraging words. When I saw your first post this morning, you voiced many of the things I thought as I read last night.

Alex, thanks for trying to include me. Your message is nowhere to be found in my inbox. I do appreciate your willingness to ask. What is WEIRD for me is that my tackling this subject had no external catalyst–nobody challenged me on the Trinity or even presented contrary evidence. I simply just felt (strongly) like I was supposed to dig in and research it. And as I mentioned earlier, I didn’t particularly want to look into it–I was already overwhelmed by everything else–but I felt that God kept putting it in front of me. One thing I might challenge here for those of you interested in incorporating “orthodoxy,” especially from the ancient Eastern Church, is that the Trinity wasn’t orthodox until like the 4th century. I will have to pull up all my old studies. In the mean time, there are books. I read, “When Jesus Became God.” I researched the author’s claims against other available information, especially because he is a Jewish historian, and it all checked out.

Perhaps we can set up a discussion where I share with you why I came to the conclusions I did, sometime in December? I hate to put it off while there is interest, but I just don’t have the time to engage right now.

Hi Julie, welcome to the forum! I have to say that I agree with you, and I’m not the only one here that does…

[Alex_Smith]

I did get the impression that people were concerned about my spirituality when they began making assumptions/conclusions about what I might believe (i.e. there are many ways to God, etc.) without even asking.

I did ask multiple times first, it was just unfortunate FB wasn’t notifying you Because there’s a historical link between a non-Trinitarian Universalism (i.e. Unitarian Universalism) and Pluralism, people are cautious around any non-Trinitarian Universalism. Obviously hopefully it’s merely a coincidence and your non-Trinitarian Universalism won’t go down that path.

As to people finding out about my Trinitarian views, I don’t think I have ever written about my views anywhere, save on what I thought was a private forum

Sorry there was no indication that I it was meant to be a private conversation - I Googled your name & some keywords & found you in less than a minute.

But they got posted here anyway, on a public forum

Again, as the initial location was public, I saw no reason why it shouldn’t be quoted on another public forum, especially as we’ve been promoting your book here.

without my even being asked about it

Again, I did try to talk to you first on FB, but I apologize, in hindsight I should’ve tried longer before posting here.

with the title, “I’m concerned about Julie Ferwerda” or whatever the original title was. The current title seems about the same.

You said, "Jesus is not “the God.” … Divinity is spoken of Jesus as “a god,” ". To me, at face value, that does sound concerning (in the sense that unfortunately it would be enough to make many evangelicals stop reading - not saying that’s fair or wise of them, but that’s just my experience of what I’ve seen happen), however, when you clarified your position a bit, I apologized to you and soften the title to what it is now.

What I am sorry to hear is that you would be discouraged from sharing a book with your friends and family that could change their lives and deliver them from fear, all because they might not like other beliefs I have. I have many thoughts on this but suffice it to say, if God is truly sovereign, and nothing is lost, why such fear (on your part)? And if we are really all that “inclusive” of others, we’ve come so far in the love of God, why are we still marginalizing?

I don’t think it’s a matter of fear, it’s just pragmatics - take this extreme example that will hopefully get my point across:

• if I had two books on UR, an excellent one written by a Mormon & an ok one written by an Evangelical.
• if I was choosing a book to give to an Evangelical friend, I’d have to choose the second one, because they probably wouldn’t read the other one.

I’m NOT saying you’re a Mormon, nor that God hates Mormons, nor that I fear Mormons, nor that I wouldn’t read the book - it’s just better that my friend reads an ok book, than no book…

[dirtboy]

Thanks Chris. I did get the impression that people were concerned about my spirituality when they began making assumptions/conclusions about what I might believe (i.e. there are many ways to God, etc.) without even asking. As to people finding out about my Trinitarian views, I don’t think I have ever written about my views anywhere, save on what I thought was a private forum (Berean—which by nature of its name should be a safe place to chew on deeper complexities of the Scriptures). That is because I knew exactly what you said to be true…people need baby steps. Also, as much as I feel that the Trinitarian views were man-made and I disagree with them, I also admit that there’s still a lot I don’t know a lot about the nature of Christ and His relationship with the Father, and for now, I’m content with not knowing (not for lack of trying, mind you).

I also do not want to be reckless with my questions, thoughts, and beliefs. But they got posted here anyway, on a public forum, without my even being asked about it, with the title, “I’m concerned about Julie Ferwerda” or whatever the original title was. The current title seems about the same. I realize this is perfectly fair–I wrote it and these things happen. I am not sorry I wrote what I did. What I am sorry to hear is that you would be discouraged from sharing a book with your friends and family that could change their lives and deliver them from fear, all because they might not like other beliefs I have. I have many thoughts on this but suffice it to say, if God is truly sovereign, and nothing is lost, why such fear (on your part)? And if we are really all that “inclusive” of others, we’ve come so far in the love of God, why are we still marginalizing?

What I am sorry to hear is that you would be discouraged from sharing a book with your friends and family that could change their lives and deliver them from fear, all because they might not like other beliefs I have. I have many thoughts on this but suffice it to say, if God is truly sovereign, and nothing is lost, why such fear (on your part)? And if we are really all that “inclusive” of others, we’ve come so far in the love of God, why are we still marginalizing?

Hey Julie, thanks for the reply. I’m afraid I didn’t explain myself clearly enough. It’s not a matter of fear. It doesn’t matter what I think, or fear, or don’t fear for that matter. It is a matter of what my target audience will read. I’m not sure how well acquainted you are with conservative evangelicals, but I have shared with several people about this topic (universal reconciliation), and it takes hours and hours of time just to get through the initial presuppositions that they have. I can’t tell you how many conversations I have had where I have presented a careful argument and I get responses such as this:
“So, it doesn’t matter to you if people sin or what they believe”
or
“So Christ’s work on the cross makes no difference”
or other crazy things like that, when I never say anything even resembling it. It takes hours to get them to even begin to see the actual argument and get them to stop smacking at straw-men. These are people I know and love and who are good people. They just have a different pair of interpretational lenses on and don’t see what I am saying at first. I was one of them once and when you start to see what you think are heterodox statements from the arguer, it lowers your trust in what they are saying. Amongst evangelicals the trinity is sacred. It is one of the essentials of the faith. I can give your book all day long but I lose my audience if they think they are reading someone they think is a heretic. Right or wrong, that is the reality we have to deal with when reaching out to evangelicals. When I read “The Evangelical Universalist”, every time Robin Parry would say something that would even start to sound the slightest bit “liberal” I would get uncomfortable and think “I hope this guy isn’t just pretending to be an evangelical.” It was where I came from. If Robin had said in the book “I don’t believe in the trinity, I wouldn’t have read it.” It would have disqualified him to me. I don’t feel that way anymore. Even though I still think that the trinity is a better explanation than anything we have come up with so far (yes, it is man-made, but I think it’s a fairly good representation of a reality that is WAY OVER OUR HEADS), I am much more open minded than I used to be. I’m not defending that mind-set, it is just the reality that we are dealing with. I’m not sure what you mean about “marginalizing”. I’m simply stating the reality of dealing with evangelicals who believe in ECT.

So I am still sharing the message, and I will still share your book with some people. However, the conservative evangelicals that I know will dismiss your book if they find out you are not a trinitarian. It’s so hard to communicate in writing without offending and being unclear. I LOVE your book and don’t think you have done anything wrong, it’s just unfortunate for some of us who deal within evangelical circles is all (I still belong to a very conservative Baptist church who do not know my views yet). I wish you would have waited a few years and let your book make a possible bigger splash in the conservative community. But that’s me. There are others here that have given up on the evangelical community and don’t care what they think and therefore think I am wrong. Fortunately there are other books out there that also have the evangelical community in mind. There is a growing supply of resources concerning universal reconciliation, praise God! Keep up the good work, Julie. I’m sorry you got rubbed the wrong way from this thread, you are actually quite admired on this site by most, including myself! I learned about your book from this site and many have said it is the best one on the topic out there!
Chris

[awakeningaletheia]

Uh oh Julie they discovered your secret! Lol I’m just kidding, I’ve knew about this for months. It kinda shocked me at first, but now I’m not so worried after doing my own study. I still believe in the trinity at the moment, mainly because I see no reason why it is wrong. I had a fundamental problem with Hell, it completely contradicts the nature of God. Whereas the trinity I have never worried about it, in fact it explains God being eternal love so very well. Yet that is neither here nor there. I have read this thread with much interest, detecting a little ire from you Julie. Can’t say I blame you, its kinda hard to have your incomplete views (not saying you are wrong in any way) tossed out into the open. In fact I haven’t even fully come out with my view of ultimate reconciliation, I really am not looking forward to that day, but come it must. I try time from time to bring it up with my dad, but he is silent most of the time. Mom is a lot more responsive, I hope slowly to introduce them both to the truly good news.

I’ve been working on a paper about the trinity for a while now, yet since it is so complex I had to take a break (it nearly drove me crazy). Julie I love your tenacity to question things, it is something I have been doing with even more basic things like the office of the Pastor, the Sermon, the Worship Service, etc. all sacred cows that need to be slaughtered. I encourage everyone to read “Pagan Christianity”, it will change your life even further. We need something that goes beyond a Reformation, we need a Restoration of 1st century Christianity. Evangelicalism is okay for me at the moment, but I am going more and more towards the first Christians. I am even considering abandoning the term Protestant. I am most certainly not one in my views. Neither am I Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Frankly I just want to follow Christ and his ekklesia’s teachings. What that looks like I do not know, but I do know that man-made traditions are slowly being removed from my eyes like scales.

Good job Julia, lets be heretics together, quoting Luther when asked what he would be if he was excommunicated, “Under the sky”. Or as Rob Bell, someone who I respect more than Luther, said, “[Heretic’s] roots are in the Greek word ‘hairetikos,’ which means ‘able to choose’. Everybody is forced to believe or think or subscribe to a particular thing, but there are those who are able to choose – how awesome is that?”.

[Alex_Smith]

Thanks Chris, your second post in particular expressed what I was trying to say

Yeah, awakeningaletheia I feel a bit bad now about letting the cat out of the bag I really stressed about it for days before posting - very tricky doing the right thing by Julie (who I have great respect for, and value as a friend & sister in Christ - I really do want her book to reach millions of people!) but at the same time, not wanting to turn off conservative evangelicals that I’m trying to reach.

[corpselight]

i haven’t yet read RH, but i hope to get round to it soon!

to be honest, i am not at all evangelical with my Universalism, as i don’t think many i know are “ready” for it, and it’d just be annoying if i had to debate it all the time. so even with The Evangelical Universalist, which is quite a proper Evangelical work, i am hesitant to mention to people. i may become more outgoing in the future, but it was hard enough coming out as an annihilationist lol!

so the concern about recommending books…well i can see the point, but if i was to recommend a book, and someone said “i heard that author is such and such, or believes such and such”, i would just say “perhaps, but this is a separate issue. just because they may have one doctrine that is ‘debatable’ doesn’t make them wrong on this one.”

afterall, are we required to agree 100% on every issue? do open-minded evangelicals (if there is such a thing outside EU) require everyone else to agree with them 100%? i agree this is one that is considered a “core” value, but if someone is so closed-minded that they can’t at least discuss alternate points of view, what makes you think they’d EVER accept UR before the end?

i guess what i am saying is…who cares about these evangelicals and their cheerless religion? if they want to blindly misinterpret the Bible and inflict horrible guilt trips on themselves…well that’s their problem. that won’t stop the Holy Spirit from calling people, and it won’t stop us from being a good influence here and there where needed.

sorry if i am being harsh…but honestly…sometimes you have to shake the dust off your shoes. if an understanding of the character of God and the meta-narrative of the Bible isn’t enough to convince them, then we’re already damnable heretics in their eyes, and it wouldn’t matter if we start claiming God is purple and lives in a marshmallow bouncey castle.

[JasonPratt]

Yeah, awakeningaletheia I feel a bit bad now about letting the cat out of the bag I really stressed about it for days before posting - very tricky doing the right thing by Julie (who I have great respect for, and value as a friend & sister in Christ - I really do want her book to reach millions of people!) but at the same time, not wanting to turn off conservative evangelicals that I’m trying to reach.

Notably, we didn’t remove her recommendation from the site–we changed the listing of the category to alert people that not everyone in the list of useful works would necessarily agree with the minimum statement of faith agreed to among the site leadership.

I’d say that’s bending over pretty backwards, considering we believe we have an epistemic duty to not promote what we believe is false!

[AUniversalist]

Are you the same JulieF I know? I see you wrote a book.

I think we are all learning and growing.

I like that Evangelical Universalist Forum is for trinitarian universalists because what I have found is that there are many other groups and forums for Universalists that are anti-Trinitarian. In the ChristianForums, a forum for all types of Christian beliefs, they accepted Universlism but labelled it as non-traditional Christianity and prevented those who belong to that title from participating in traditional Christianity discussions. Univeralists for the most part were anti-Trinitarian and that was the only criteria which made them non-traditional Christianity. I like this forum because I don’t have to debate trinity and focus just on salvation discussions.

Though I guess there is always room to discuss Trinity.

[JulieF]

Good morning everyone. Thanks for all the gracious and affirming posts—I read them all. I am sorry about over reacting to some things that were said. Some days I feel like I have a long way to go in the maturing process Perhaps that’s why I often have a soft spot for Peter.

I look forward to future dialogs and I think it’s great that there are so many opinions expressed here. I really appreciate that people care about the feelings of others and I do sense a great amount of respect in the way people interact here. That says a lot about the hearts of those who administrate. Have a great rest of the week.

Julie

[JasonPratt]

Have a great Thanksgiving, Julie!

(Here’s a link to my yearly repost of, or in this case relink to, “Saying Grace”, my Thanksgiving article/sermon at the Christian Cadre.)

[corpselight]

you’re a bit late for Thanksgiving, i think…it happened in October

[JasonPratt]

That was All Hallows Eve.

Besides, American Thanksgiving is the only one that counts. (Or, we Americans are ungrateful longer. )

[dirtboy]

i guess what i am saying is…who cares about these evangelicals and their cheerless religion? if they want to blindly misinterpret the Bible and inflict horrible guilt trips on themselves…well that’s their problem. that won’t stop the Holy Spirit from calling people, and it won’t stop us from being a good influence here and there where needed.

I care a great deal about these Evangelicals as I am one of them still and your characterization is not just harsh, it is wrong. I am currently in dialogue with my brother who is one of those evangelicals and he is open minded, but not yet agreeing. It is not an all or none, black and white issue. Just because you are convinced that something is true (and wrong about it) it doesn’t make you “blindly misinterpreting the bible”. My brother has been slowly accepting my argument, but I know he would be deeply troubled by non trinitarian arguments. It is not easy to take a core issue and cast it aside for the time being. You are presenting a stereotype of evangelicals that may be true of some people but is certainly not true of others. My pastor, for example, is a traditional ECT guy, but is a man I greatly respect, even though I disagree with him. You seem to have a great disdain for evangelicals, but if you do, this is not really the right site for you, after all, it is “The Evangelical Universalist”! I’m not saying you should leave, just that it seems to me that you need to re-adjust your attitude toward evangelicals. I have convinced 7 of them in the last year, and these were conservative evangelicals.
Chris