Does Luke 20 Teach Conditional Immortality?


#13

Yep, I couldn’t agree more. The point I’ve simply highlighted being… Paul’s use in the context of covenant transition in terms the old order/age/world drawing to a close with the coming new order/age/world that was dawning “in Christ”. Understood accordingly gives clarity to these texts…

Thus John and Paul’s “passing world” or OC system correlates with the disciples…

Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


#14

Hi, Davo

Yes, I agree. When I see people talking about ages and asking things like ‘how many are there?’ and seemingly seeing the various ‘ages’ as discrete entities (or at least as discrete entities with some overlap), I keep seeing guys with charts and pointers explaining minutely detailed particulars regarding the various ages which they have extrapolated from scriptures that were (imo) never intended to be used that way. :unamused: It doesn’t sound like that’s the way you see it. Though I’m not a preterist (well, maybe partial), I appreciate your clarifying your position on that. :slight_smile: Thanks!


#15

Where, then, is Satan? Is he still the god of this world? Is he still blinding unbelievers minds, as per 2 Cor.4:4? Or do you think he is already in the lake of fire? Or perhaps already saved? Or is it your position that Satan is just a myth & that the Divinely inspired writers of the Scriptures didn’t believe Satan exists as a person?

According to your Pantelist theology God is already “all in all” (1 Cor.15:28), death is already abolished (1 Cor.15:26), all the resurrections of Scripture have already occurred, Christ returned in 70 AD, & all the prophesies of Scripture have been fulfilled, correct? Also you say that Scripture is silent as regards the question of afterlife correction (or punishment), yet this doesn’t keep you (for unexplained reasons) from leaning against the teaching of there being an after death punishment. Do you also lean against there being punishment for Satan, demons & fallen angels?


#16

Correct… though I doubt you understand the full gamut of these things.

I’d have thought the apparent “for unexplained reasons” rather obvious… there is NO biblical teaching on “afterlife correction or punishment”.

Such ended with the AD70 parousia courtesy of the lake of fire, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem. That which opposed and accused the brethren, aka the High priest and Co. had their place in the lake of fire.

You really don’t get the language do you?? Israel’s eyes were “veiled” — a clear reference to the Temple, i.e., law righteousness. Their ignorant hankering (Rom 10:3) for law righteousness was the very thing condemning them, i.e., “accusing” (satan) them, aka “the law” Jn 5:45.

Well what is your concept of saved? If the satan be a human figure, i.e., the High Priest then as a human and despite his ignorance and demise in the lake of fire… duly reconciled.

The Scriptures attest to ‘satan’ — whether they agree with your reddish, horned and pointy-tailed ethereal being is totally another thing altogether.


#17

Neither is there, according to you, teaching against afterlife correction or punishment. After all, you claimed Scripture is silent on the issue. Yet, as i said, for no apparent reason you take a side (in your lean against such punishment).

If Scripture teaches anything from Genesis to Revelation, it teaches that Divine punishment is coming for those who do evil. God does not change.


#18

Well Origen… you’ve got me befuddled as to why you keep talking in circles… is it because you can’t answer anything else. :blush:

OF COURSE, I “lean against such punishment” BECAUSE as I pointed out… “there is NO biblical teaching on afterlife correction or punishment”. :unamused:


#19

Well…only if everything was all wrapped up in AD 70. :mrgreen:


#20

:laughing: Well… perhaps you can explain what your master means :laughing:


#21

And here I thought we had the same One :unamused:


#22

I’m sure we all do :smiley:


#23

If Scripture is silent on the issue of after death punishment, then it is silent both regards:

  1. Any statement teaching in favor of afterlife punishment and
  2. Any statement teaching in opposition to afterlife punishment.

So why is it that you lean to position B (there is no afterlife punishment) rather than position A (there is afterlife punishment), when the Scriptures, according to you, are silent regarding both? Instead why isn’t your position to be silent when scripture is silent, since, according to you, it is silent regarding both 1 & 2? Yet you are not silent regarding both A and B, but take a position of leaning to B.


#24

O’ silly me… you can ease my confusion by simply posting ALL the texts that ACTUALLY and CLEARLY speak to postmortem punishment and or correction.

BTW… if you say scripture speaks of fairies in the Garden of Eden, would me saying scripture is silent on this mean said silence establishes my position? Surely you providing the text/s to the contrary would prove me wrong, no? So please go ahead… let’s explore your postmortem punishment/correction texts.


#25

So should i take it that you have no answer to the questions i asked?


#26

Yep as expected your usual MO… not wasting my time, see ya!! :unamused:


#27

Origen:

Scripture doesn’t speak of unicorns, leprechauns, or sasquatches. I lean against them being real. My guess is davo’s belief is like that; where there’s no evidence for something it’s reasonable to not believe in it.


#28

I’m sure Davo can speak for himself.

My guess is his remark re a lean against afterlife punishment is birthed out of nothing but what i’ll call a sympathetic feeling for other[s] who don’t like the idea. (Which would explain why he doesn’t answer my questions.)

OTOH, BTW, in contradiction to that feeling, his other feeling is that if he were God, there would be afterlife punishment.

Our feelings should be left aside if we wish to be objective about what the Scriptures teach.

Davo has stated there is no evidence in Scripture for the fairy tale position that there is no afterlife punishment (correction or sufferings of any kind) for the worst serial killers & monsters in history. So by your own reasoning he should not believe in this fairy tale because there is “no evidence” for it.


#29

Denigrating ultra universalism by calling it “fairy tale” isn’t helpful.


#30

Well, davo can indeed answer. But to address your topic, our acceptance of scripture has to do with understanding and belief. If we understand a position and believe, we move ahead. For instance, If you believe that all scripture (OT & NT) is or was written perpetually for all the ages, then this is the problem you come to. In others words there are problems about God and hell and salvation that arise. So you hunt and peck for the verses that you like and leave the others behind.

What some people try to do is to put the whole package together in a way that we can read OT and NT passages and have HARMONY.


#31

What Scripture gives you the idea that the torments of the “High priest and Co.” have ended & they are “duly reconciled” to God:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev.20:10, KJV)

Rev.20:10 reveals the devil (whom you equate with the “High priest and Co.”) is cast into the lake of fire. Wouldn’t that kill a mortal man like the High Priest? Then, after his death, he is tormented in the lake of fire, which would be after death punishment. This continues EIS the “ages of the ages”, or, since you don’t seem to like literal translations & interpretations, i take it your preference is KJV “for ever and ever”. IOW ECT.

BTW, the contextual references to Satan & the devil don’t seem to be speaking of a human “High Priest”:

Rev.20:2 He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Rev. 20:7 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison,

Unless you think, like some Pantelists, apparently, that the millennium (1000 years) lasted only about 40 years (c. 30-70 A.D.), which comes about 960 years short of a full enchilada.


#32

Davo said:
From a pantelist perspective this… “Jewish and early Christian two-Ages doctrine” speaks directly to and of the Mosaic age of law and the Messianic age of grace.

My reply:
I think this has no basis in Scripture.

Davo:
There is no inkling “the two-Ages” speaks to pre-mortem existence as opposed to post-mortem existence.

My reply:
While most of those of “this age” (beginning with the new world after the flood & ending with the end of this world system at Christ’s future return) have died & will not be raised until the “age to come”, there are those who will be alive at the end of this age and live into the next age.
Therefore for Scripture to speak of the distiction you refer to would be unscriptural, even though it is generally true.

Davo:
This “unto the Age [to come]” speaks to the Gospel Age which was to come in all its fullness.

My reply:
What dates does your Pantelism theory imagine this imaginary age began & ended - 30-70 AD? Is that your millennium of Rev.20?

“Some of the peculiar teachings of full preterism [=Pantelism] are as follows. The second coming of
Christ has already taken place including the rapture, the general resurrection from the dead and
the final judgment; the old heavens and earth have completely passed away; and the new heavens
and earth are present. The Great Commission has already been completely fulfilled (Mt. 28:18-
20). The Bridegroom has returned for His church. Both death and Hell (or Hades) have been cast
into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:13-14).”

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7639&p=116234#p116234

Davo:
Thus QUALITATIVELY understood this <αἰώνιον εὐαγγελίσαι> αἰώνιοn ueaggelisai i.e., “eternal gospel” is the lasting message of grace — that is… hope fulfilled.

My reply:
The one & only reference in Scripture to an aionion gospel (Rev.14:6) is not a message given by humans, but a flying angel, and not a “message of grace” (nor Christ or the cross) as in Paul’s epistles, but of fear & judgement: “saying with a loud voice, Fear God and give him glory, for the hour of his judgment has come; and do homage to him who has made the heaven and the earth and the sea and fountains of waters.”(v.7)

Davo:
The NT era AD30-70 was the true ‘intertestamental period’ was that transitional time linking Paul’s “this age” of the old covenant era, aka “this present darkness” (Eph 6:12) and “the age/s to come” of the new covenant era that was bourgeoning and coming to light (Rom 13:11-12).

My reply:
The Romans reference seems to have nothing in common with your commentary.

Eph.6:12 refers to “this darkness” (omit the word “present”) in the context of Satan’s devices (v.11) & putting on the whole armour of God
to wrestle against him, not against flesh & blood. This has no reference to any covenant or age. And i’m quite sure Satan is still prowling
about, not already in the lake of fire (or a myth) as per the various theories of Pantelism.

The new covenant is in Christ’s blood shed on the cross (c.30 AD) which didn’t occur in 70 AD. Neither was there any “age” beginning or ending c. 30 AD. Instead “this age” He referred to & was Himself living in was to end, not at the cross, but at His yet future return (Mt. 13:39; 24:3; 25:31-46). “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:” (Mt.25:31-32).

Davo said:
Even Hart is acutely aware of the qualitative force of <αἰώνιον> aiōnion, stating

Hart wrote:
Wills makes a similar error (and a very anachronistic one) in thinking that Jude 7, in speaking of the “aeonian fire” that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah, is referring to the endless torments of souls in hell. No competent New Testament scholar believes that. The fire in question is the physical “brimstone and fire” that destroyed the cities of the plain, and the term “aeonian” here (as the word often does) qualifies that fire and brimstone as divine rather than temporal in nature, coming—in the words of the Septuagint—”para kyriou ek tou ouranou” (“from the Lord out of Heaven”), and thus as neither kindled nor extinguishable by human hands.

My reply:
This unsupported opinion is just that, merely an opinion. Where is it documented with any evidence by any alleged “competent” scholars? Who decides which scholars are competent & which are not. Eonian qualifies the fire of Jude 7, but not brimstone since the word is absent from the verse. Also, BTW, brimstone can be found to this day in the region, so if it was “divine” it hasn’t returned to its owner in heaven. But the comment says it was also “physical”, so why should it return. No one denies the divine cause of the fire that destroyed the cities, whether directly from God or indirectly by means of nature (earthquakes, volcanic activity, etc). But that doesn’t make the word aionion mean a quality of divinity rather than its consistent Biblical usage & meaning of indefinitely lasting duration, often of a long period such as an epoch or age, especially in the NT. Hart may have been reading too much of Plato & injecting Platonic ideas of aionios into Scripture. There are historical reports of fire burning in the region centuries after it destroyed the cities there. Even if the fire lasted a short time, that is still within the range of meanings & usages of the word as simply a duration that lasts for an indefinite period of time.

As the following commentary says: “The fire has long ceased but its effects will remain and testify to God’s judgment until the close of this eon, after which Sodom shall return to her former estate (Ezek.16:53-56)…The cities, however, are lying before us as a specimen of God’s eonian justice. The effects of the fire endure for the eon.”: continued at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23#p111483

Davo said:
While I broadly agree… it still doesn’t solve the inherent problem, i.e., logical consistency demands the repetitious <αἰώνιον> aiōnion “everlasting” operates identically for BOTH punishment AND life — and as such, from the pantelist perspective, speaks purely to this life as it then was — either in the comforting riches of Christ or the coming ruins of conflagration.

My reply:
Tom Talbott & others have demonstrated logically that the life & corrective discipline (or punishment, Mt.25:46) need not be of equal duration as you apparently “demand”: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7286

Even if they were of equal duration, the contrast may be referring to destinies in the future coming age, e.g. the millenium.

After a believer’s mortal body dies, he has an eonian glory & body in the heavens:

2 Cor.4:17 For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory,
18 at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian." 2 Cor.5:1 For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens." 2 For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven

So eonian life isn’t limited to this mortal life only, but is also for those who have died “in Christ”, e.g. the martyrs Stephen & James in the book of Acts. Believers will obtain “life eonian” in the “coming eon”:

29 Now He said to them, "Verily, I am saying to you that there is no one who leaves house, or wife, or brothers, or parents, or children on account of the kingdom of God, 30 who may not by all means be getting back manyfold in this era, and in the coming eon, life eonian. (Lk.18:29-30)

29 Jesus averred to him, "Verily, I am saying to you that there is no one who leaves a house, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or fields, on My account and on account of the evangel, 30 who should not be getting back a hundredfold now, in this era, houses and brothers and sisters and mother and father and children and fields, with persecutions, and in the coming eon, life eonian. (Mk.10:29-30)

Which eon occurs after Christ’s return when life eonian will be obtained:

46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian. (Mt.25:46)
41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (Mt.25:41)

Life eonian is also experienced after the resurrection of the body:

Dan.12:2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."
3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further.

The above passage also indicates after death punishment.

Eonian life is also a hope and a promise:

1 Jn.2:25 this is the promise which He promises us: life eonian
Titus 1:2 In hope of eonian life
Titus 3:7 3: heirs according to the hope of eonian life.
Jude 1:20 Now you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith, praying in holy spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, anticipating the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for life eonian.

The willfully disobedient do not have such a promise or hope & will forfeit life eonian:

Jn.3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him."

2 Thess1:4 so that we ourselves glory in you in the ecclesias of God, for your endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions with which you are bearing -" 5 a display of the just judging of God, to deem you worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering also, 6 if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction to those afflicting you, 7 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers, 8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ" 9 who shall incur the justice of eonian destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" 10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

Rom.2:4 Or are you despising the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, being ignorant that the kindness of God is leading you to repentance? 5 Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 Who will be paying each one in accord with his acts: 7 to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian

16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ

Davo said:
As I have pointed out on numerous occasions… Jesus himself defines <αἰώνιον> aiōnion exactly in like qualitative manner indisputably right here…Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

My reply:

NT Wright’s version (The Kingdom New Testament) says:

2 Do this in the same way as you did when you gave him authority over all flesh, so that he could give the life of God’s coming age to everyone you gave him. 3 And by “the life of God’s coming age” I mean this: that they should know you, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, the one you sent.

Much the same is the version by the aforementioned David Bentley Hart:

2b that he might give them life in the Age.
3 And this is life in the Age: that they might know you, the sole true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus the Anointed.

Which doesn’t require the interpretation that life in the “coming age” is a definition of knowing God.

Similarly it is claimed based on 1 Jn.1:2 that “life aionios” is a definition of Christ:

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) (KJV)

But if that were so, then you deny the eternal preexistence of Christ, His Deity & the Trinity. For Scripture reveals the aionion times had a beginning (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9) & the aions (eons, ages) had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7). Therefore aionion life must have had a beginning. So if you define Christ Himself as aionion life, you are defining Him as having had a beginning. This denies the Trinity and the Deity of Christ.

Moreover, N.T. Wright is considered to be a leading NT scholar & his translation renders “life aionios” as “the life of God’s coming age” (1 Jn.1:2, NTE). Compare:

Weymouth New Testament
the Life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and we declare unto you the Life of the Ages which was with the Father and was manifested to us–

Young’s Literal Translation
and the Life was manifested, and we have seen, and do testify, and declare to you the Life, the age-during, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us –

And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us. (CLV)

And, the Life, was made manifest, and we have seen, and are bearing witness, and announcing unto you, the Age-abiding Life, which, indeed, was with the Father, and was made manifest unto us; (Ro)

(and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and we bear testimony, and we declare to you the life the age-lasting, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us (Diaglott Greek-English interlinear)

…the AIONIAN LIFE…(Diaglott margin)

and announce to you the life of the Age…(The NT: A Translation, by EO scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017).

Indeed the Chayyei [Olam] was manifested, and we have seen it and we give solemn eidus (witness of testimony) and we proclaim to you the Chayyei Olam which was alongside with HaAv [Yochanan 1:1-4,14] and made hisgalus (appearance of, exposure of in revelation) to us [Shlichim]. (OJB)

In fact there is reason to think it [life aionion] refers to life in the age to come (e.g. the millennial age eon) and/or to the following age of the second death in the new earth. Which lasts until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes “all in all” (v.28), even in all who were in Adam (v.22).

Christ is that life of those ages. Believers obtain it. The wicked do not. Yet eventually all shall be saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13, etc).