Does sin exist any more?


#52

This will still be true, when Z-Hell ( 1, 2, 3) finally arrives!


#53

Of- means pertaining to
indicating an association between two entities, typically one of belonging
expressing the relationship between a general category or type and the thing being specified which belongs to such a category.

There are many different faiths, and the word of is a distinction between them.
For example : I don’t belong to the faith of Roman Catholics, the faith of Islam, or the faith of Jews. I belong to the faith of Christ, or the faith/words associated with Christ.


#54

In what way does Jesus have or need faith? I listened to Michael Williamses’ message on this and I didn’t hear an answer. Mebbe you can help?


#55

Well, I’m pondering becoming Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. In fact, I am a prospect for both. As I am an Eastern Orthodox prospect and an RC RCIA attendee.

But the RC concept of sin is very legalistic. I understand it’s a legacy, from the Jesuits and St. Augustine.

  • For example. In RC, its a sin to miss a Sunday mass. But in EO theology, it’s not a sin to miss the Divine Liturgy.

  • The RC church divides sin into moral and venial sin. The Orthodox don’t and look on sin as sin.

  • The RC church views that we are all guilty of original sin. The EO church looks on all as guilty of ancestral sin. Adam and Eve are the only ones, guilty of original sin.

  • Etc. .

What I do during RCIA class, is look at an RC teaching. Then I ask what is the Orthodox take on it. And so far, I’m more in tune with the Orthodox. Yet I view both churches as having valid orders, sacraments and saints. No offense to any Catholics, on this forum. For me, the EO provides a framework - for me to view theology.

However, to be fair…neither the RC nor EO church, emphasizes Z-Hell ( 1, 2, 3)…I guess it’s up to me, to make folks aware of this! :wink:

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#56

Dave, As John says, no man has ever seen God. We believe in things that are unseen; the intrinsic values and principles of life that are “more precious that gold.” And Jesus, even though He suffered, held on to these things just as Job (and others) did.


#57

LLC - I understand your point. What I was thinking about was the contention by M. Williams and others that we don’t need faith - that we live by the faith OF the Son of God. Not IN, but OF.
And my question really was - what faith does Jesus have? How can He believe FOR US? The concept is very hard to understand and SEEMS to be a kind of contradiction.


#58

Dave, I agree. Jesus can’t believe for us.

We definitely need faith. As I mentioned before, There are may different faiths and the OF is a distinction between them. For example:
A grain of mustard seed
A grain of barley
A grain of wheat
Of specifies what kind of grain.
Jesus had faith in the Holy Spirit and His words, and we have the same faith.


#59

I think those who read the genitive constructions as the “faith of Christ,” usually interpret pistis as referring to Jesus’ “faithfulness” in our behalf, rather than as his beliefs.


#60

Don’t try to understand it like that because that’s NOT how it is or what it means. Bob notes the point well…

Simply put… we live because of Christ’s faithfulness.


#61

Bob, this is nonsensical. Faith is belief.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 3:12 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”

One can have faith in many things.
Obviously, faith in pagan/false gods doesn’t bring you life.
You can say:
a round of golf
a round of applause
a round of drinks
Again, the faith of Christ indicates what that faith is.


#62

Hum! I wonder what the got Questions site, has to say?


#63

HF, As I mentioned, faith is belief. For example, those who have the faith OF CHRIST condemn animal and human sacrifices. Such things are perverse and ungodly. We don’t believe in them because this it NOT our faith, nor the faith OF CHRIST


#64

Well, you sometimes express certitude about scholarly and lexical variations, and may have studied under different Greek scholars than I :slight_smile: None doubt that pistis sometimes refers to faith. Indeed when I studied classical Greek in the 60’s at UCLA, the first meaning of pisteuo was to “trust.”

Though I’ve studied the Greek NT since then, I don’t pretend to be an expert on Koine. But I can tell you, that my N.T. exegesis profs regularly insisted that pistis is often used in the N.T. and in the LXX to mean not belief, but faithfulness. And since they clearly also taught faith in Jesus is critical, I’m skeptical that they just made that up. N.T. Wright e.g. offers quite a demonstration that pistis especially in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Bible used by NT writers in the first century) is often used to refer to God’s faithful actions in behalf of keeping his covenant, rather than to what God ‘believed’ or trusted.

Shucks, in some ways this emphasis on pistis as righteous action and character, rather than a doctrinal belief system, may fit your belief in continuity better than it fits those who think belief in Jesus is uniquely saving.


#65

Actually, if I have faith in you LLC, and you for whatever reason disarm or go beyond my trust, then you are maybe the heart of evil?

So I would look at it as we look at things different. Your evil and mine could be different.

The Hebrew Ideas are not for us here and now, though I realize that is a very unpopular view.:roll_eyes:


#66

LLC wrote:

Bob, this is nonsensical. Faith is belief.
Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 3:12 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.”

NOPE! Bob is right. Though in the first verse you quoted, it appears to refer to belief, the second one may refer to “an evil heart of faithlessness.” (just as “faith” often refers to “faithfulness).”

“Belief” doesn’t count for much; indeed it doesn’t count for anything if it is mistaken belief (and our beliefs are often mistaken).


#67

Don, this was from LLC, not me, having said that,

You said: NOPE! Bob is right. Though in the first verse you quoted, it appears to refer to belief, the second one may refer to “an evil heart of faithlessness.” (just as “faith” often refers to “faithfulness).”

Don Said…“Belief” doesn’t count for much; indeed it doesn’t count for anything if it is mistaken belief (and our beliefs are often mistaken).

But belief is the bedrock of our faith. We hear something and grow to believe and thus out faith is grown. Belief counts for everything at the time it is acknowledged. Faith is as Hebrews says, the confidence in things not seen but believed.


#68

I guess you didn’t notice that I had corrected that before you responded.


#69

So, having said that, how do you respond?


#70

Paidion, trust, believe, faith are pretty much interchangeable to me.
When God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they did not trust/believe/ have faith in His words.
When God told Abraham to leave the pagan gods behind and go to a new land, he trusted/ believed/ had faith in His words.

When you tell your kid, “Don’t do drugs.” and he doesn’t trust/believe/ have faith in your words, but thinks you’re full of crap and does them anyway, then his unbelief will get him into a lot of trouble.

When God says, “Love others as yourself” and “Do not seek vengeance on your enemies.”, but you do not trust/believe/ have faith in these words and instead, you follow the desires of your own heart ,then you have departed from the living God.

Proverbs 3:5-6 " Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct you paths."


#71

Well, I surveyed a couple of Protestant articles:

Let me quote a bit:

Belief is a product of the mind, but faith is not. Faith is a product of the spirit. The mind interferes in the process of faith more than it contributes to it.

Let’s get another opinion, shall we?

This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust. Intellectual assent is believing something to be true. Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true. A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it. Trust is actually sitting in the chair .

Perhaps another opinion?

The difference between faith and belief

Belief – An opinion or judgement in which a person is fully persuaded.

Faith = ( Belief × Action × Confidence )

And an EO article:

Well, this is interesting!