The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Easy Yoke (Matthew 11:28-30) vs Self Denial (Luke 9:23,14:26

What Jesus spoke and modeled in these passages was not so much for US in ‘the life of the coming new age’ but rather to his contemporaries, in particular his DISCIPLES, showing and instructing THEM *in what it would take to get there. *

IOW… Jesus is not modeling ‘new creation life’ as such but rather the radical faithfulness or service ON BEHALF OF Israel required of those who would continue his ministry to Israel through to the end of the age, when they would in turn be duly saved; as per Mt 24:13.

There isn’t ONE verse that actually mentions this… you are simply invoking an errant “interpretation” onto 1Jn 2:15-17; or to use your words from elsewhere… giving it “a translation” that does NOT exist.

I still can’t distinguish whether Got Questions is “Calvinism in Disguise” or just answering a question, as a Calvinist see things.

And some don’t see them, in a positive light - like

The second website strongly disagrees with their “once saved, always saved” theological stance.

But some agree with you, in that they take a Calvinistic approach:

I think after reading the second article, I agree they appear to be “Calvinism in Disguise”.

And even if they were “Calvinism in Disguise”, I strongly object that they can’t give a good Biblical or Theological answer - to a question.

Look at CARM. The author is Calvinistic. But he answers the question on:

What does it mean to take communion in an unworthy manner?

I think the answer is very excellent and addresses the different perspectives.

And **not ** accepting an answer from a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, etc., limits our understanding and seeing different perspectives. :exclamation: :slight_smile:


Aren’t we all called to be Christ’s disciples?

MATTHEW 28:19:
-19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This is from the King James Version as it’s my preferred translation (I am NOT KJV-only, although I used to be), but other translations more accurately render it ‘having gone, then, disciple all the nations’.

Maybe so but there still is this:
MATTHEW 19:29:
-29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

…and this:

LUKE 14:26:
-26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Not exactly talking about fun (which is a subjective term, there are people who find fun in sinful things, the question is, are all fun things sinful? and if so, who can live up to such a standard)
I want do keep Christ’s commandments, and the golden rule and the love God with all your heart commandments are not burdensome, BUT, I can’t see myself being able to keep the commandments listed above.

What I don’t understand is how the commandments listed above are compatible with an easy yoke and a light burden.

God Bless
Christ Be With You All

Also, I thought I might share these to give a window into what I have been exposed to:

Don’t let the title throw you on the last one.
I know gay marriage is wrong, but this video goes into other areas.

Still read no commentaries or followed HFPZ’s links to those who have studied these things and can put them in perspective for you? Don’t thrash around, there’s no need - read and learn. We’re on your side, giving you good advice.

STT, you said:

Jesus is speaking in superlatives–in hyperbole–a literary device used liberally in the Middle East (and many other places) to this day. What His hearers understood from this saying was that He required His disciples to hold their loyalty to Him in far higher importance than even their loyalty to their families.

So you’ve been reading Francis Chan? (Whom I believe to be a good and sincere brother, btw, despite his rather distressing spiritual struggles and his imposition of those struggles on those who read his work.) No wonder you’re suffering from feelings of inadequacy and condemnation. NO ONE can live up to Francis Chan’s understanding of God’s requirements on us, including Francis Chan. Just ask him–I’m sure he’ll readily admit it. YES we ought to do our best to live out the love of Christ in a very literal way. NO, NO, NO we should NOT think that our eternal destinies depend on our success in obeying the law as set forth by Jesus to His Jewish brethren. This is where Chan misses it, IMO. He thinks Jesus was talking to US. He was not. Jesus was talking to the children of Israel of His day–He said the things He did to demonstrate to them the utter impossibility of their keeping the law sufficiently to EARN THEIR SALVATION. We do not earn our salvation. Jesus did that as the representative of the entire race of Adam. HE is the second Adam. “Just as by the one man, the many were constituted sinners . . .” (That one man was Adam.) “The many” here refers to all men who were constituted sinners, which I don’t think anybody would attest refers to fewer than every human being except for Jesus Himself. “. . . even so by the one man (Jesus) the many were constituted righteous.” This is the very same “many” who were made sinners. That’s abundantly clear from the grammatical structure. I may have gotten the quotes slightly wrong since I’m doing them by memory, but you get the point I hope. It isn’t WE who make ourselves righteous; it is JESUS who does this. Chan is right that we’re all in deep st if we think we’re living up to the standards of Christ, but he’s wrong in saying in essence: "therefore we’re all in deep s*t." He’s wrong because Jesus’s whole point was: “YOU CAN’T DO THIS, PEOPLE. That’s why I came to BE the second Adam for you.”

Seriously. Stop reading Chan. One of these days the light is going to dawn and he’s going to be clonking his head against the wall and groaning at the things he has said and the people who have suffered because of his misspent eloquence. I have another friend who just KNOWS she’s destined for eternal torment, and why? Because Chan is among her favorite authors. Just say no to Chan. Seriously.

As for Jesus and the Rich Young Ruler, the RYR asked what HE needed to do to complete his salvation. Jesus answered him with a task Jesus KNEW the RYR couldn’t carry through. That was what the RYR had to do to earn his salvation. Are YOU earning your salvation, or is it a gift from your Lord? YES, YES, YES you should strive to become like Jesus, but never think that this is a task YOU can achieve. God does this, and He who has begun a good work in you is able and diligent to complete it. HE will complete it. You do your best to cooperate, but don’t forget who the real actor is here. Him, not you.

Jesus was talking to His disciples–the same disciples who would later become His apostles. He was talking to twelve men in particular and possibly to seventy, but Jesus was not directly addressing you. Are you hoping to sit on a throne and judge a tribe of Israel? I didn’t think so. These people had given up a lot to follow Jesus. Jesus is reassuring them that their Father will not permit them to truly lose ANY good thing. In fact, He will not only restore, but restore a hundredfold. If, at some point, you find yourself making such sacrifices for the Kingdom (or even suffering the losses we all suffer from time to time), then you can take these words to yourself, but if you DON’T suffer such losses, then you don’t need these words because you don’t need to be comforted–you still have all these good things.

I’m not sure what the problem is with the above verse. It’s the one I myself quoted earlier (rather less well than you’ve done for sure). Adam sinned; we were all constituted sinners and condemned. Jesus (the second Adam) lived righteously; we are all justified in Him. THAT, my friend, is the very “glad tidings that shall be to all people.” Jesus has saved you. Follow Him. It is in fact a very easy yoke and a very light burden. You have made it heavy and terrifying by your imaginations and by listening to preachers who have done the same thing to their own hearts and also to their congregations. Follow Jesus. See Him ahead of you? Follow. It’s honestly that simple. He’s your shepherd. If you wander off, He’ll go after you and carry you back on His shoulders. Sheep are dumb and they need a lot of shepherding. He’s up to the job. You aren’t your own shepherd; you’re not responsible to get yourself to the green pastures. That’s His job. Just follow Him. SIMPLE. Follow–one step at a time.

You’re flying out to see your girlfriend? You love her? Think she might be the one? Wonderful! Love and cherish her. If you two marry, then be the best husband to her you can possibly be. Work hard; care for your children; help those people God puts before you to help–or at least try to. Do your best to honor God in your work and in your play and in your service to your family and to others around you. Live. Don’t be afraid to have fun; having fun is a good thing. The joy of the Lord is your strength–not the condemnation of your own deceived heart. God is your Father–the sort of father a father SHOULD be; the sort of father YOU should strive to be. Just live, STT. That’s what you were sent here to do, and it will not be an easy task, so stop taking on the cares of an imagined ogre and instead look to and trust your Heavenly Dad to guide you into all righteousness.

From my perspective this was THEIR call to disciple the nations (tribes of Israel) immersing (baptising) them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, i.e., the Gospel… which was “your God reigns!Isa 52:7

Hang on STT… you can’t just keep making these blanket-type statements, be challenged on them and give “maybe so” tacit agreement and then blithely move on switching to the next conundrum you encounter.


No I haven’t sorry :/.

[tag]Cindy Skillman[/tag]

No it was just one sermon by him I listened to on YouTube once.

Still, God is not a respecter of persons, and thus treats all equally, that is why Calvinism is false:

ACTS 10:34 :
-34: Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
-35: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

ROMANS 2:11-2:
-11: For there is no respect of persons with God.
-12: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Doesn’t surprise me at all, because that one sermon I listened to of his made me feel the same away, I prayed a prayer I can’t even remember which felt like a ‘one last shot’ prayer, and shortly after I came across the theology which is often called ‘easy believeism’, which removes the need for repentance altogether in regards to salvation (which I now think is wrong), although with that being said, they taught there was other punishment for sin that did not relate to salvation, and those people had some of the strictest standards and listening to them is what led to my 1 John 2:15-17 anxiety, which led onto another issue because I couldn’t find a Christian teacher who believed having fun wasn’t a sin who also didn’t believe that repentance of sin was required for salvation, although this isn’t much of an issue now because I now believe repentance of sin is required, (although it’s a change of mind, if someone struggles with sin but desires to be set free, I see that as repentance and hope God does do), I still get anxious over 1 John 2:15-17,
and now as you know, I have the similar issue of finding Christian teachers who believe in Universalism through post-mortem discipline and also The Trinity and free will.

Well, what about this then:

LUKE 10:25-28:
-25: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
-26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
-27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
-28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

I have seen this interpreted as when the Rich Young Ruler said he kept his commandments, he was only keeping the ‘love neighbor’ commandments, which The Lord Jesus Christ listed as the last 6 (Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.), and the Rick Young Ruler was not keeping the ‘love God’ commandments as he had money as his god (lower case g intended) and had to sell all of his possessions to relinquish money as his god.
On the contrary, the ‘certain lawyer’ listed all 10 commandments including the ‘love neighbor’ AND ‘love God’ commandments and Jesus simply responded “Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.”
Is money my god because I am not giving to the homeless but rather saving my money to avoid being detained by US customs.

I struggle to see how the ‘justification of life’ could be considered a ‘free gift’ when in order to receive set gift, you may have to sell all of your possessions or leave houses and families.

Just going for a 6 week and 5 day visit over the Christmas break, and of course I love her, we need to get educated and employed before we can get married, and decide where the best place to live is (here or there).
I understand Matthew 6:33:

-33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

and Luke 12:33

LUKE 12:31-34:
-31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
-32: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
-33: Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
-34: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

These verses say that I AM meant to be giving to the homeless people and trust God to provide a plane ticket, but I don’t have strong enough faith for it to be so.
URGENT prayer request that I can get this faith.

Hopefully I can the faith crisis I’m having right now before I fly out on the 25th of November, I don’t want to ruin the time with my fiancee because of it,
and knowing airlines, they will charge me an excess luggage free for my spiritual baggage also :/.


The point of my “Maybe so but there still is this:” is the whole idea that I struggle to see the gospel as good news when in order to receive a ‘free gift’, you have to live up to an incredibly strict standard that few are capable of doing so", and I fail to see how said standards are compatible with an ‘easy yoke’ and ‘light burden’.

Didn’t Jesus say this:

MATTHEW 7:13-14:
-13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
-14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

God Bless
Christ Be With You All

Ok, I see where you’re coming from.

You obviously have a particular mindset in understanding these things on a given level and that seems to be to a large degree fear-based, which is unfortunate, and that is not something to be easily just changed. However, IF you can challenge yourself to accept that there may just be another or other ways of viewing these texts that don’t feed into said fear you might be pleasantly surprised.

I tend to take an historical approach to the texts of Scripture and consider what is called ‘audience relevance’—what would the audience to whom these things were spoken have understood of what Jesus said; what did it mean to them etc.

Israel was occupied territory (by Rome) and although the Pax Romana (Roman peace) as pretty much in place there was no amount of rebellious skirmishes with any number of Jewish insurgents to challenge these occupying forces—hence the Roman roads that transversed the empire for the speedy dispatch of legions to put down such troubles. IOW… these were politically charged times.

I shared that to say this… Jesus’ way to “life” (peace) was non-resistance (Mt 5:41) and as Israel’s eschatological prophet often had an end in view. He prophesied of the future fall of Jerusalem and warned his people NOT to take the way “to destruction” i.e., against Rome, as that was to end badly.

Thus taking the historical context into consideration you can leave yourself out of the context because you’re NOT in it, i.e., these threats don’t apply to you AND they are NOT referencing any postmortem state.

The context of Matthew 7:13-14 IS referencing the postmortem state, 8 verses later we come to The Lord Jesus Christ talking about people not entering Heaven, and explaining what happens to the ‘many’:

MATTHEW 7:21-23:
-21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
-22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
-23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Theses verses alone don’t contradict universal reconciliation because they can be interpreted as not making it to Heaven in this life, HOWEVER, they can be lined up with the strict standards set forth in Matthew 19:29 and Luke 14:26 and be interpreted as these people did not enter through the narrow gate because they did not live up to said standards.

STT, if God wants you to give your airplane ticket money to the poor, HE will give you the faith to do that. It’s not up to you to work it up. Don’t sweat this. Go see your beloved and enjoy your time together. If God wants you to give that up, He’s able to give you the strength to do it AND to let you KNOW it’s Him and not just your fearful heart demanding this sacrifice. God doesn’t need your money. If He asks a sacrifice of you, it’s for YOUR benefit, not because He’s not up to caring for the poor without your help.

As to the Lawyer and Jesus’s advice: “Do this and you will live,” it’s the same thing He said to the RTR, just tailored to fit the lawyer. The lawyer KNEW he wasn’t up to that standard. No one is, save Christ alone.

STT, if God wants you to give your airplane ticket money to the poor, HE will give you the faith to do that. It’s not up to you to work it up. Don’t sweat this. Go see your beloved and enjoy your time together. If God wants you to give that up, He’s able to give you the strength to do it AND to let you KNOW it’s Him and not just your fearful heart demanding this sacrifice. God doesn’t need your money. If He asks a sacrifice of you, it’s for YOUR benefit, not because He’s not up to caring for the poor without your help.

As to the Lawyer and Jesus’s advice: “Do this and you will live,” it’s the same thing He said to the RTR, just tailored to fit the lawyer. The lawyer KNEW he wasn’t up to that standard. No one is, save Christ alone.


I wrote this on the other post but I’ll say it here as well. You can volunteer in helping the poor. You don’t have to spend money. Spend your money on you husband/wife

No… “entering” the kingdom of Heaven/God was not a reference to a PLACE postmortem but to a POSITION in this life that by its very nature extended to the Day of the Lord’ (AD70). That intervening period was where those of faith were actively participating in the REIGN (kingdom) of God/heaven (Rom 5:17).

But listen, all that said… it is my conviction that you will be pleasantly surprised on the other side of the grave. However, your choice to hold your present fear-laden view is simply that, your choice, and NO ONE can make you change your mind… that’s your business, and IF you can live with that fear as you do, well all I can say is good luck… it wouldn’t work for me.

Say this and you are covered in His righteousness and don’t have to worry about hell. When our faith is in Christ we are covered in His righteousness. Let Go and trust God. If you mess up confess your sins.

Dear God in heaven, I come to you in the name of Jesus. I acknowledge to You that I am a sinner, and I am sorry for my sins and the life that I have lived; I need your forgiveness.

I believe that your only begotten Son Jesus Christ shed His precious blood on the cross at Calvary and died for my sins, and I am now willing to turn from my sin.

You said in Your Holy Word, Romans 10:9 that if we confess the Lord our God and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, we shall be saved.

Right now I confess Jesus as the Lord of my soul. With my heart, I believe that God raised Jesus from the dead. This very moment I accept Jesus Christ as my own personal Savior and according to His Word, right now I am saved.

Thank you Jesus for your unlimited grace which has saved me from my sins. I thank you Jesus that your grace never leads to license, but rather it always leads to repentance. Therefore Lord Jesus transform my life so that I may bring glory and honor to you alone and not to myself.

Thank you Jesus for dying for me and giving me eternal life. AMEN.

[tag]St. Michael[/tag]
I responded to you on my other topic thanks (link - [A Short Bible Case for Universalism-feedback)).


Where do you get that from in scripture?

I hope that conviction came from God.

I would let go of the fear if I could, but I can’t, even when I do at times, it always comes back because soon after someone will say having fun is a sin, or I find yet another Universalist denying The Trinity and free will, and then there is just the words of The Lord Jesus Christ:

MATTHEW 16:25:
-25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Some people will say this means you are lost if you stress over matters of this life, which I do.
This is reinforced with these:

MARK 4:19:
-19: And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

LIKE 21:34:
-34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

And some could see this as another ‘thou shalt not have fun’:

1 TIMOTHY 5:6:
-6: But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

God Bless
Christ Be With You All

What Jesus actually said was one could neither “see” i.e., comprehend nor “enter” i.e., apprehend the kingdom as a present reality without the rebirth. In the Greek these injunctions are in the aorist tense, meaning: an action as having occurred, the results of which being past indefiniteJesus was not pointing to some future state of being or to some future destination beyond the grave i.e., postmortem heaven. Jesus was pointing to the established standing or condition in God of having one’s heart and mind opened up to know the reality of His presence ‘in the here and now’. THIS is eternal life and is qualitative not quantitative, it is relational not spatial — as Jesus prayed:

Matthew 7:21-23 parallels with Luke 13:24-35:

LUKE 13:24-28:
-24: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
-25: When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
-26: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
-27: But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
-28: There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

In verse 28 it’s clear that this is talking about post-mortem, because the people see Abraham, Isscac and Jacob in the Kingdom of God, and they were not a live at the time this was written, let alone 40 years later.

I have a question, STT. If the “Calvinism in Disguise” site Got Questions, has no problem with Christians having fun…and in parroting your words, “Calvinism is one of the worst positions ever created”…then why still the hangup on fun?

It’s hyperbolic language… indicative of the SEPARATION, hence the phrase “gnashing of teeth”—or are you expecting literal teeth to be “set on edge” postmortem? Again, the phrase “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets” is comparative language of ‘restoration’ and fullness… something to come in fullness of covenant renewal, Israel’s covenant renewal—that which Jesus and the firstfruit saints were in the process of outworking in that “present evil age” AD30-70; the joys of which in the Consummation the hard-hearted thinking such would be theirs but Jesus turns the tables telling them “the first will be last” vs. 30.

STT, I believe that much of life is a paradox. Between the two extremes is where one finds the answers. I don’t know how old you are, but you sound very young. To me, the Bible speaks of the self evident truths of life, and the older you get, the more you will come to see what it is saying.
Life is not merely all fun and games. At some point we must grow up and take on the responsibilities of it. At times, this can be quite overwhelming. I believe all things should be in moderation. We should not become so overburdened with the responsibilities of life that we fail to take time to go have fun, nor should we be having so much fun that we throw all responsibility to the side.