The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Enoch, inspired?

Evangelical Universalism
#1

I’ve been studying Enoch lately and considering its influence on the NT. Some people believe that Enoch should be considered part of the cannon of Scripture because it is often quoted or alluded to by NT authors, more so than any other apocryphal book. Should it be considered part of the cannon? This is significant in that Enoch presents a picture of the spiritual realm, what is and is to come, and is often quoted as affirming ECT. It is affirmed as revealing a prevailing belief among the Jews in ECT. And it is believed that what Jesus said concerning Hinnom Valley (gehenna) should be interpreted with Enoch’s visions as a foundation.

Was Enoch inspired? Should Jesus’ warnings concerning Hinnom Valley (gehenna) be interpreted through the lens of Enoch? Does Enoch affirm ECT? If not then what?

#2

Tbh, I’m always perplexed at what books were not included.

For one, the Didache. Why on Earth is that not in there? :confused: (interestingly enough, there’s no mention of ECT in the Didache)

I don’t know if this means that the Bible is incomplete, or that these works were excluded via God, or if they are just side works or what.

#3

I pretty much believe it should be a part of the cannon of Scripture. I have never read it myself, but have seen a lot of scripture on it online and also how it pertains to end times. Not sure how it affirms ECT anymore then what we already know of scripture. It was written in Greek, yes? then the same words and translations to English should be the same.
Anyway, the book of Enoch is about the fallen angels procreating with human women and creating hybrid offspring known as the Nephilim. And as far as i know, the judgment Enoch refers to is the judgement of these fallen angels and the Nephilim race and anyone who worships them.

#4

I view God’s revelation of Himself and His will like a bull’s-eye target. The center, the bull’s-eye is Jesus; He is the perfect revelation of the character and will of God, Emmanuel, God with us, God in flesh and blood so that we can see Him and understand Him better. The next revelation, the 2nd ring surrounding the bull’s-eye is the cannon of scripture shared by Protestants and Catholics alike. The 3rd primary ring are writtings long accepted by a large portion of the body of Christ as being inspired. Rings continue to go out from the center including writings of others either not so old or not so widely accepted, writings of others who are non-Christians but inspirational, and Creation itself is the last ring. The closer we are to the center, the bull’s-eye, the brighter the light. The further out the dimmer the light and the more one must study to discern to see the light. Enoch, to me would be in the 4th or maybe 3rd ring.

Apparently Enoch was likely written by at least 4 different authors who wrote in the psuedonym Enoch, written over a period of 100 or 200 years, around 200 to 100 BCE. It is apocalyptic literature meant to encourage the faithful that good will be rewarded and evil will be punished, if not in this life, surely in the next. God is a righteous judge and He will make things right! It is similar to John’s Revelation in literary style and thus filled with visions and symbols. Its purpose is to encourage the oppressed that vidication and justice will ultimately come, similar to John’s Revelation.

An interesting and significant aspect of it is it seems to be a synthesis of both Jewish and Greek thought, theology and mysticism. This synthesis can especially be seen in its depiction of the spiritual realm, both the present and the realm to come. It combines the Greek mythology of the Titans being overcome by Zeus and held in Tartarus with the Genesis 6 account of the “sons of God” (angels?) mating with women and producing a race of giants that led to the flood. In Enoch these “angels” that sinned, that fell from their first estate, were consigned by God to Tartarus and are held there, one place says 10,000 years, another says forever and ever.

The more I consider this, the more I think of Enoch as “then contemporary inspirational writings”, and thus not “authoritative” but something that would have been referenced to affirm or illustrate a point one desired to make. Thus Peter’s reference to angels being cast into Tartarus in 2 Peter was not intended to affirm that such actually happened, but was referenced as an example of judgment that was commonly shared. Was it referenced as something that actually happened or as a fable that communicated a truth; I don’t know. Enoch was contemporary inspirational apocalyptic literature and was referenced like we might reference stories today as a illustration of points being made. But I continue to study and thus would appreciate others sharing their view of Enoch.

#5

No. It is not in the Scriptures for a reason. It is a moral story and parables.

#6

i read through it rather quickly and saw that it was in no way even to be considered part of canon. there is ECT, there is a lack of grace to the penitent(!), there are things talked about that aren’t even hinted at in the Bible.

it’s myth, pure and simple, and i’d even say BAD myth.

quoting from it (twice? how is that worth noting?!) by NT authors doesn’t validate it, any more than me making reference to some myth and applying it to real life makes that myth a true story.

#7

Paul quoted 3 secular poets does that make their poems need to be added to Scripture?

A common writing tool is allusion. Even today, pastors would reference pop-culture (books, movies, etc.) To help people understand their point. That does not make the pop culture reference itself Scripture.

The second point is that the NT writers are not confirmed quoting the Book of Enoch it only seems that way.

#8

I believe that it reflects a long-standing Jewish tradition of events which actually occurred.

I am almost wholly ignorant of its teachings regarding duration of punishment. I hope this doesn’t negate the argument of prevalent Jewish teachings regarding Gehenna before and during Jesus’ time, though.

#9

It’s not specific on the “duration” of punishment. In one place it says the angels that sinned will be held in Tartarus for 10,000 years and another “unto the ages of ages” commonly translated as “forever and ever”, both of which I think are meant to be understood as indicating an indefinitely long, but long, period of time.

A primary reason I’m researching this is because some people who affirm ECT look to Enoch for support, implying that ECT was a prevelant Jewish belief during the time of Christ. I think they are making a lot out of nothing though. Not only is it not part of the Cannon of scripture for good reasons, it does not even affirm that the punishment of these sinning angels is “endless”. And it being “apocalyptic” literature implies that it is was not meant to be taken literally, but to be viewed more like an inspired story, like Lord of the Rings.

#10

Hi Sherman,

New Testament authors quote and allude to 1 Enoch more than any other apocryphal book. And 1 Enoch says that the Lord rejected the fallen watchers/angels request for their forgiveness and the forgiveness of their children who are the Nephilim that ate humans, which indicates no possibility of liberation from their everlasting punishment. But the second temple Jews never said that 1 Enoch was inspired while only Ethiopian Jews and Christians said/say that 1 Enoch is inspired canon. A key of interpretation is that Paul quoted pagan authors without suggesting that the pagan authors were inspired by God.

By the way, my book takes a careful look at 1 Enoch but does not focus on your question about its canonicity. And 1 Peter 3:18-19 flips the ETC in 1 Enoch when it describes the chained angels exposure to the gospel.

#11

given that Enoch seems to have been a silent influence in the development of ALOT of beliefs about heirarchies of angels and devils coupled with eternal conscious torment and a general lack of mercy from a pretty petulant god…it may be interesting to know how and where it’s spread its poison.
sorry, i know i’m a bit harsh, but i think it has done alot of harm.
the Ethiopian church had it while the western church banned it.

Augustine was bishop of the northern African churches, if i remember correctly…could there be a connection here?

#12

I once examined the use of aion in the Book of Enoch

I think it is questionable if it teaches ETC, I am not even sure if it teaches eternal life for the righteous

I do not consider it inspired

the Ethiopic church preserved it in Ethiopian language and dismissed the Book of Revelation as far as I know, I think there was no connection between the Ethiopian church and the Latin speaking church

it would be interesting to know which view the Ethiopic church had on universalism

#13

I read thru a fairly good portion of the book of Enoch aka 1 Enoch…and yes, it does teach ECT…but only for the Nephelim/Fallen Angels/Satan crowd. ECT is not intended for humans. I also read parts that correspond to the "parable of Lazarus and the rich man. It mentions Sheol and that there is a chasm that separates the evil fallen angels etc and those that are the children of God. This was not a parable. There are parts of Enoch that tells you ahead of time if they’re a parable or not, this was not.

What i am gathering from the book of Enoch and the bible we know, and thru lots of prayer and seeking the Lord is that those who are all human are automatically saved…tho will still be judged according to their works, but he himself shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Humans will not have a part in the LOF. The LOF was intended for the devil and his angels just like the bible says. The book of Enoch confirms this. Matthew 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

More online studies say that apparently for the first 500 years the book of Enoch was accepted by the church. But the powers that be had their own evil agenda and didn’t want the church to know about these things. Words and translations have been altered, deleted and edited in the bible so that the church now ends up teaching that humans can go into the LOF when really it is just meant for the fallen ones.

It also speaks of the new heavens and earth…and these versus from the bible correspond with 1 Enoch 9.

Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Jude 1:14-15
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

1 Enoch 9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

I do believe the book of Enoch promotes universal salvation – -for those who are fully human. :slight_smile:

That said…it is still questionable if the LOF (whatever that is) is literally forever…or just for the ages of the ages…( a long period of time)…for them that is. :wink:

#14

could you provide any references?

#15

Its a whole variety of “references” as to where i arrive to my conclusion.

Here is some versus from the book of Enoch. Raphael the holy angel is showing Enoch, Sheol…

XXII. Sheol, or the Underworld.

CHAPTER XXII.

  1. And thence I went to another place, and he showed me in the west ⌈another⌉ great and high mountain [and] of hard rock.

2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. †How† smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at.

Number 2. in Greek…the other translation Ethiopian…
2. And there were four hollow places in it, deep and very smooth: †three† of them were dark and one bright; and there was a fountain of water in its midst. And I said: ‘How smooth are these hollow places, and deep and dark to view.’

  1. Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: ‘These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period ⌈till the period appointed⌉, till the great judgement (comes) upon them.’

  2. I saw the spirits of the children of men who were dead, and their voice went forth to heaven and made suit. 6. Then I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: ‘This spirit–whose is it whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit?’

Number 5. in Greek: The other is Ethiopian…
5. I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. 6. And I asked Raphael the angel who was with me, and I said unto him: ‘This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?’ 7. And he answered me saying: ‘This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.’

The “children of men”…are those that are born from men and not from satan/fallen angels. Cain was from his father, the devil. Abel’s bloodline was not corrupted.

  1. Then I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: ‘Why as one separated from the other?’
  2. And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been made 〈for〉 the spirits of the righteous, in which there as the bright spring of water. 10. And such has

"The bright spring of water i believe refers to Jesus.

Then here it talks about the ones who are cursed and who will be binded forever and ever…

  1. Then I asked regarding all the hollow places: ‘Why is one separated from the other?’

  2. And he answered me saying: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And this division has been made for the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of water. 10. And this has been made for sinners been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their lifetime. 11. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever, and retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever.

  3. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. 13. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors. they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence. 14. Then I blessed the Lord of glory and said: ‘Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.’

when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed upon them in their lifetime. 11. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain, till the great day of judgement, scourgings, and torments of the accursed for ever, so that (there maybe) retribution for their spirits. There He shall bind them for ever. 12. And this division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days of the sinners. 13. And this has been made for the spirits of men who shall not be righteous but sinners, who are godless, and of the lawless they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be punished in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence. 14. Then I blessed the Lord of Glory and said: ‘Blessed art Thou, Lord of righteousness, who rulest over the world.’

It somewhat gets confusing and parts of it appear broken up…but it seems to imply that souls are still conscious in Sheol…and can voice their decision for Jesus or not. And those that never will accept Him are the fallen angels and Nephilim and they will never repent. They are the cursed ones. They are the ones that were never in the book of life from the foundations of the world that Revelation refers to.

There is more information I’ve read and also scripture in the bible that proves it. Thing is, i don’t know how much you all really believe in the Nephilim and the fallen angels and all that as being literal. One has to believe in them as literal beings in order to believe all this. I do believe they are real beings along with Satan so it makes it easy for me to believe this. I can still find more references and scripture that speak of this such as in Genesis and Noah who was pure in his bloodline/generation. He wasn’t one of them from Cain/Nephilim. And Sodom and Gomorrah speaks of the the fallen angels and that’s why God destroyed them. It was because the fallen angels mating with humans. Also my references speak of the Nephilim that are here today, in this generation. Genesis 6:4 There were giants (Nephilim) in the earth in those days; and also after that, (After the flood)…when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

All speak of the Nephilim and how God destroyed them all and will destroy them all in the future. They were/are the offspring of fallen man/descendants of Cain/fallen angels/Nephilim. But if one doesn’t believe any of that to be literal, i don’t want to waste my time because it can get a bit time consuming…and much of it might appear like conspiracy theory or myths. One has to truly believe Nephilim are real to be open to it. That they are here among us and were among us and appear to be human but are really the tares that the bible speaks of.

#16

My problem with the idea that the bad angels/nephilim don’t get restored is that it flies in the face of

  1. the restitution of all things
  2. Jesus is the savior of the kosmos
  3. God will be all in all

And we still have the problem of God knew that those angels would sin, and yet created them anyway knowing they would be damned forever. If you believe the nephilim are angel hybrids, then you also believe the angels are the sons of God. They are His children, and you still have the cruel God, you’ve just replaced humans with angels.

1 Like
#17

Okay, but that leaves us back to the translation of “forever and ever”…or is it …ages of the ages…A very long period of time. See?? We still have to find out and confirm exactly what that means…

#18

What do we mean when we ask whether or not a book is “inspired”? Do we simply mean that God moved on the author? Surely He has moved on many authors. If we included all of their writings in the Bible, then the Bible would probably comprise 50-100 volumes.

Maybe by “inspired” we mean that God has so moved on the authors that their writings are without errors. If that is the case, then we might not have any books in the Bible.

One clear example of a factual error may be found in the book of Jude, where he quotes from the book of Enoch. Jude states that the author of the book was the “seventh from Adam”, in other words the historical Enoch who was bodily taken somewhere by God, and was never seen again. As has been pointed out, the author of Enoch lived only a few centuries before Christ. Jude was clearly mistaken. Should we throw Jude out of the Bible because of this error? I don’t think so.

The book of Enoch is filled with descriptions of planetary objects moving in and out of gates. When the sun goes down, it moves through a gate, etc. I know this may have been the astronomical thinking of that age, but do we really need such nonsense in our Bibles?

#19

this reminds me on the serpent seed doctrine, that says if I am not in error, that even nowadays humans live that belong to serpent seed and can never be saved - on the other hand, Cain’s offspring should have perished in the flood, so that no descendants of him could be alive nowadays? - in both cases it is contrary to universalism

here is a link that arguments why the Book of Enoch isn’t inspired:

brainout.net/EnochTest.htm