Fair points. I was worried that Nyrgen’s book which is pessimistic about Eros – could be used as a tome to bash what Cole’s is trying to put into words struggling with the paradox as we all do - that’s all. I am so glad that our brother Cole is talking of God from a position of trust in his own feelings and moral intuitions and of confidence in his worth in God’s love now. I am so glad.
‘The Allegory of Love’ and ‘Love in the Western World’ (or ‘Passion and Society’) are certainly both intellectual feasts – whereas ‘The Four Loves’ cooks for the masses. Yes it is irrelevant that they are intellectual feasts - but they are both that – and they both mentions Nyrgen in passing and both take different approaches to his. SO it’s only me that’s done the carping here – because I’ve not read any carping critics of Nyrgen. I haven’t read the whole of ‘Eros and Agape’ but there is a large chunk of his book in Allan Soble’s collection ‘Eros, Agape and Philia’ – and it’s inclusion is not dismissive. I’ve tried to define Eros above in its full sense to help out the disucssion. I haven’t read every book in the world. But it is clear from the substantial selection I have read from Nyrgen that I think he was too negative about Eros. Father D’ARcy in ‘The Mind and the Heart of Love’ follows Nyrgen’s argument closely and concludes that Eros – the love that ascends - has it’s part to play; but at the end of the day – and he quotes Shakespeare knowingly out of context – it’s a case of ‘Unarm Eros the long days task is done’ (when God is all in all).
For me, it goes just beyond mere agape. It overflows into worship. For me, Christ becomes the center. My life revolves around Christ. He satisfies the deepest longings of my heart. Worship here being love, adore, devoted to, treasured, and most valued.
As far as being ‘addicted to Jesus’ goes – och that does remind me of the Jesus Freaks I used to know when I was young (many aeons ago) who used to boogie things up with ‘Jesus has blown my mind man he is the ultimate trip’ (hey! ). Which again reminds me of one of the fringe Free Grace preachers; a certain John Cowder who has extraordinary comedy eyebrows and can sometimes speak good sense, so I wish he’d speak it. more often – he’s the guy that does ‘Drunken Glory’ preaching tours and talks about ‘toking the Holy Ghost’ and ‘getting a hit on the Spirit’.
I think I understand the metaphor of’ ‘addicted to Jesus’ – and this seemingly has something to do with an Eros for God. But addictions actually rob us of our freedom and personhood – whereas Eros, if it is to be creative, takes us out of or small selves into a larger cosmos of connections – but it does not destroy our personhood. I guess a case could be made for St Paul himself using shocking metaphors about Christians being free in slavery to Christ – and the context in which he used such language needs careful attention because it has been misread as minimising the offence of actual slavery. So I appreciate the metaphor of addiction to mean freedom and ecstasy. But I’d be very cautious about using it – and I certainly think John Cowder is a complete and utter plonker in how uses it (if you’ve seen him in action):lol: .
Regarding Agape this time I’m gonna say I agree muchly with Dave here. These are the important instances in the New Testament where the word translated as love is actually ‘agape’
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15)
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40)
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love (agapēseis) your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love (agapāte) your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? (Matthew 5:43-46)
“God is Love” (1 John 4:8)
And from the King James version – the word charity in 1 Cornithinas 13 is actually agape in the original Greek –
13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(1 Corinthians 13:1-8 King James Version (KJV)
So God is in a sense pure Agape. God is pure disinterested love that desires the good of the beloved whatever the cost and it is reconciling love that breaks down barriers too–
Anglican theologian O.C. Quick cautions however that this agape within human experience is “a very partial and rudimentary realization,” and that “in its pure form it is essentially divine.” Quick suggests that,
(This is from the Wiki article and I note that O.C. Quick as an Anglican is confident that as bearers of the image of God we are capable of partial and rudimentary realisation of agape.
Agape in its plural form in the NT also denotes the Love Feasts held by the early Church of open fellowship between reconciled sinners – picking up on Jesus parties to which everyone was invited including tax collectors, publicans and prostitutes.
Does agape exclude other forms of love – like phileo/friendship and eros? I think not – it takes up these other loves and transforms and universalises them. Jesus is our model of agape – btu he also wept passionately about the fate of Jerusalem and everything about the incarnation prepares the way for desolation in passion and exultation in resurrection (this is the work of passionate and engaged love).
Regarding ‘phileo’, in John’s Gospel the risen Jesus calls us his ‘Friends’. And there is an intriguing example of Jesus playing with the words agape and phileo (friendship) can be seen in the Gospel resurrection narrative where the risen Christ asks Peter three times ‘Do you love me?’ as a parallel to Peter’s threefold betrayal. The first time Jesus actually asks Peter ‘Do you agape me’ – that is do you love me unconditionally with a love of the sort that you can even share with strangers and enemies; while the next two times Jesus asks ‘’Do you phileo me’ – that’s is ‘do you love me with a friends love of delight and intimacy’.
Well I’m not quite sure what to make of this. Jesus is speaking to Peter’s condition – ‘perhaps agape is beyond you but at least can you be my friend?’ Or is the connection more positive ? Our friends delight us in some way – the tone of voice, a way of laughing, shared interests or life experiences, special kindness and sympathy etc. I guess that if Peter does represent humanity – the Rock on which Christ builds his Church – and Christ will one day be All and in All – we often have to start with an unconditional and impersonal love with others we may find hard to like, but we love in hope that we will progress through eternity to intimate friendship with ALL in Christ. Who knows ? But it’s an intriguing and teasing passage .
My posts are too long. But you raise lots of issues old chum
That’s just my views with my relationship with Christ. Yours may be different. I can become addicted to anything. Especially if it satisfies my deepest longings and desires.
I love God ABOVE ALL ELSE. And my neighbor as myself.
I don’t see God as being equal to people like you do. Christ is the MOST magnificent. God ALONE deserves my worship. He is MOST valuable to me. I’m sorry you can’t say the same.
I do delight in other things. But not to the degree and intensity that I delight in Christ. Christ is MOST satisfying to me. Because He is the MOST glorious.
Me and Christ were made for each other. It was not by accident that He satisfies my deepest longings. It was destiny.
Cole - Friend and dear soul (and never think I don’t care boat you just because I can’t think of a form of honey coated words in which to sing your praises)
I’m sorry if I cannot speak to your condition with my abstractions – the fault is mine.
I do not think for a moment that we are equal to God. God is transcendent love beyond my comprehension and vain imaginings, Jesus is magnificent beyond comprehension too – but he is the image of the Father to me also. As God incarnate Jesus is also man – and the road to following him is a much in becoming fully human as in growing from the image of God into the likeness of God (but never becoming in God). Loves ecstasy has its moments but loves ecstasy is not a permanent state – St Teresa of Avila who you quoted up thread knew this only too well. We are called to love God and also our neighbour as yourself – loving service to others is the road to God, especially the outcast and the despised. Even the Spanish mystics who are most uninhibited in their ecstasy did not teach otherwise. We are the body of Christ – the destiny of all of us is to be caught up into relationship with God – into loving communion (but not equality/union) - and into loving communion with each other.
My prayer for you – in words that may not be well crafted – is that you will be drawn into ever closer communion and communication with your friends here and elsewhere. I hate to see you isolated – it really gives me pain. I hold you in the Light. And I ask your forgiveness for words misplaced
I think you’ll get isolated again if the road you tread is only one of your relationship with God It’s about both God and neighbour and seeing Christ in our neighbour (and everyone is our neighbour)
Oh, Absolutely Dick! That’s why I keep in touch with my mom daily. I’ve been communicating with my dad over the phone. My friends daughter comes by regularly. As does his granddaughters and their husbands. I talk to my brother on occasion. I also have a few friends that I went to A.A. with that I communicate with. One of them being my best friends lawyer. We also visit the hospital occasionally and talk to the people at the foundation(the foundation where my friend donated 11 million dollars to). And even though I don’t agree with everything the Catholics teach, me and my buddy attend mass every week. Were doing quite well.
What I’m saying, is that for me, Christ is number one.
I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. For me, the essence of worship is in my mind’s vision of Christ and my affections for Him. Whenever I display the worth of Christ by my words and actions that flow from me valuing Him above all else, I am worshiping Him. What I’m saying is that when I see the glory of Christ and value Him above all else I then overflow by treating others with self-sacrificial love for their good. In doing so, I double my pleasure in God. I seek to joyfully love others and do good because it ultimately brings them joy. I extend the overflow of the Joy found in Christ to others. For their joy, my joy, and God’s glory.
– because I’ve not read any carping critics of Nyrgen. I haven’t read the whole of ‘Eros and Agape’ but there is a large chunk of his book in Allan Soble’s collection ‘Eros, Agape and Philia’ – and it’s inclusion is not dismissive. I’ve tried to define Eros above in its full sense to help out the disucssion. I haven’t read every book in the world. But it is clear from the substantial selection I have read from Nyrgen that I think he was too negative about Eros. Father D’ARcy in ‘The Mind and the Heart of Love’ follows Nyrgen’s argument closely and concludes that Eros – the love that ascends - has it’s part to play; but at the end of the day – and he quotes Shakespeare knowingly out of context – it’s a case of ‘Unarm Eros the long days task is done’ (when God is all in all).
). Which again reminds me of one of the fringe Free Grace preachers; a certain John Cowder who has extraordinary comedy eyebrows and can sometimes speak good sense, so I wish he’d speak it. more often – he’s the guy that does ‘Drunken Glory’ preaching tours and talks about ‘toking the Holy Ghost’ and ‘getting a hit on the Spirit’.
- Friend and dear soul (and never think I don’t care boat you just because I can’t think of a form of honey coated words in which to sing your praises)