The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Eschatological View

Theology Eschatology
#21

I’m still not clear on what exactly all of the options are, but since I do believe that Jesus’ apocalyptic proclamations (for the most part at least) were fulfilled in 70AD, and I am certainly loathe to believe that this is all that there will ever be, I put down partial preterist.

You’re not alone! lol!

Heiser does a GREAT breakdown on how you can plausibly interpret any of the major eschatological views from scripture:

youtube.com/watch?v=lmEAL2d3iJA

As for myself, I think that there is definitely some great overlap in the truth, and that there is plenty of both “now but not yet” stuff going on along with perhaps cyclical recurrences. And though I think that much of the popular eschatology these days is pretty half-baked, they do seem to have some pretty frightening insight into modern world events. :open_mouth: :laughing:

Yes, I totally agree with your viewpoint here. I’m not certain what exactly panmillenialism entails (a quick search on Google didn’t really give much in the way of results) but if that’s what it means then I’m highly inclined to agree. :smiley:

I’m agnostic in some respects, but I definitely believe that there will be a very real “coming” of the Son of Man and that He will be revealed bodily in some way in the midst of that (as He has done anyway for many since His resurrection), but that this cannot precede a more thorough, general revelation to the people of the world to prepare them - and that there will be great trials and tribulations in the meantime, since “we must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God…” Acts 14:22

And I think that there will probably be gradual stages of renewal, cleansing and transformation of the earth, and that much of this will happen through the church (and has been happening in very gradual ways up until this point already).

Beyond these general assertions, though, I remain mostly agnostic.

And this is coming from a guy who’s had visions of the future! :open_mouth: :astonished: :laughing:

#22

I am the lone Futurist. :laughing:

I dont even understand what the first 4 are in this poll… :nerd:

#23

lol, that’s one reason i went for the last option!
i don’t even know if futurism is linked to pre-, mid- and post- trib…

#24

amen!

#25

Yes it’s linked to that. I still say pre-trib makes the most sense. :slight_smile:

#26

fair enough! it makes more sense to me than mid or post trib.

#27

Definitely. :slight_smile:

#28

Once I read Revelation a couple times, I’ll tell ya.

#29

Thanks for the preterist link, Awe, and thanks for the video link, stellar renegade. I am going to read/listen to these and try to make some sense of this whole preterist/partial-preterist thing. It’s all relatively new to me, and I have quite a bit of research to do.

So much for my theologically enlightened pretensions. :slight_smile:

#30

Hi Psalmist. Having read your posts for some time and having received encouragement from you (and your musical musings) I await your studies into this topic with more than a passing interest. hen you’ve done the research, please tell me what I should believe.
My background is pre-millen pre/mid trib rapture. Whilst I am no longer as confident in such a view, I have yet to see a convincing interpretation to the text where Jesus says he will return in like manner as they saw him go (and a physical manifestation seems an integral part of the resurrection gospel), from preterists.

#31

How did Jesus go? he ascended. He will/does/is returning by ascending in our hearts. Till the daystar arises in your hearts. Who was and is and is to come. He will come in the clouds; we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. The unveiling of Jesus Christ, that God gave to Him to show His disciples which must shortly come to pass.

My two cents. I don’t claim to be a preterist btw, although I may be, I’m not great with labels :slight_smile:

#32

Oh my. I’ll do my best not to let you down. :wink: :slight_smile:

I was raised to believe in pre-millen and pre-trib rapture, but I can definitely relate on no longer feeling certain in that regard. I’ve been thinking about moving to the Isle of Patmos to await further instruction. Trumpets, seals, bowls, plagues and such, you know. :wink:

#33

Any Greek island would do me! I’ve enjoyed a few, but there’s so many still on my bucket list. :wink:

#34

Hi All, I am the sole voter in the Full Preterist selection. Again, I just want to make a couple of points and then move on:

  1. Preterist Archive was begun by a full Preterist named Todd Dennis, a Baptist pastor from Alaska. Todd and I were, and still are, friends. Sometime along the way, my argument for universal reconciliation tied to full preterism convinced him and, rather than embracing UR, he rejected full preterism. He is now what he calls a Preterist-Idealist, which simply means that he believes in double fulfillment. In all that though he still cannot reject my UR. LOL. My problem with Pret Archive is that Todd has not sufficiently represented the “Pantelist” (full-pret, and UR) position. He cites a guy named Townsend (I think that’s the name), and says that he later rejected UR. Proof of something, I guess.

  2. Most people ask the question, and it’s a legit question: What now? If FP is true, what can we expect from our future? Well, there are a variety of opinions but most Pantelists (we congregate in two places on the web - Facebook’s “A Pantelist Community” and Talk-Grace) of whom I am a part believe that there is an ongoing application in spite of there being no ongoing fulfillment. IOW, Jesus fulfilled it all, but for what purpose? In my view it was to recreate the world at large - and that is gradually occurring. The message of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness needs to overcome the one of “knowledge of good and evil” though. And I think for the most part, it is. The church has always had a good representation of UR in its history. Only “bad things” have caused that optimism to waver - e.g., WWII. How indeed, someone asks, can you say God loves all when Hitler killed so many Jews? Well, this question stems from the paradigm of “knowledge of good and evil.” When we embrace that we are “naked (i.e., fully human) and yet unashamed” we see that “all things work together for the good” of humanity - first for those who believe and then eventually for the “unjust” upon whom God sends the rain…(cf. Romans).

The Church is called “a kingdom of priests.” What exactly is the purpose of a priest? It is to represent his/her people. It is certainly not to represent himself or other priests…so since all those who are “saved” are already priests, the priestly activity that we all have is to represent “the unsaved” (using typical church terms here) to God. Just as Adam represented all humanity to God (and failed), Jesus represented all humanity to God and succeeded. The big diff is that Adam’s failure resulted in Eve’s failure as well. Jesus’ success meant success for his Eve, the Church. Certainly the Church sometimes looks more like the Serpent (a religious entity) but she is still “the mother of all living.”

I appreciate this site and the opportunity to share some of these ideas and concepts. I hope that all will be challenged and blessed by what I’ve shared in my 2 over-sized posts. Blessedly, even if we remain in disagreement on this issue, we can all agree that God’s grace is sufficient.

May I recommend a book here? My friend Doug Reed wrote a book called “God is a Gift.” You can obtain it from godisagift.com/. It is NOT explicitly full preterist but has preterist references. It is mostly a call to the Church to abandon its works-orientation.

#35

shaking dust

#36

WWWW, I too believe there is a change coming - a paradigm change (sorry for the big word). I am, obviously, from my other comment in disagreement with you concerning most of the other stuff, but…

The word spoke of a time, after the establishment of the new heaven and earth (which I believe occurred in AD70), when “the mountain of the Lord’s House would be chief among the mountains.” This is the same mountain that came from the “rock” (i.e., Christ) that would “grow into a great mountain and fill the whole earth.” God’s kingdom is growing unabated from the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Although I think the dispensational view is unbiblical, there seems to be a general agreement amongst most religions that 2012 is going to be significant. The Mayan calendar predicted that “the end of the world as we know it” would occur later this year. While Hollywood and others have tried to make this out to be the physical world, Mayan scholars have pointed out that this is not a physical “ending” but a paradigm shift of such significance that it appears to be 180 degrees from where we are now. It’s more than a shift, but a total U-turn.

I see, in this paradigm U-Turn, a move away from traditional religion and towards a more enlightened view - where the god of all is seen as “the love god,” rather than the god of wrath. I have already seen these types of moves within Christianity - many Catholics no longer recognize the dogmatic nature of their religion, many Reformed believers are embracing universalism, groups that traditionally believed they were the ONLY ones liked by God are now embracing others as their brothers and sisters (e.g., Lutheran-Missouri Synod, is actually thinking about allowing non-Lutherans to take communion with them), and more and more charlatans (like Paul and Jan Crouch, Harold Camping, Hal Lindsey, Jimmy Swaggart, et al.) are being exposed. On top of that famous preachers like Carlton Pearson and Mike Williams have become universalists.

It’s a great day to be alive. There is a change coming - perhaps not one that you’d like, but nevertheless, the one God has planned all along (in my humble opinion).

#37

shaking dust

#38

@ Ed and Wikki: Your last couple posts are particularly interesting to me. I do think things are happening as well. I would like your opinions on something: Ed said:

“I see, in this paradigm U-Turn, a move away from traditional religion and towards a more enlightened view - where the god of all is seen as “the love god,” rather than the god of wrath. I have already seen these types of moves within Christianity - many Catholics no longer recognize the dogmatic nature of their religion, many Reformed believers are embracing universalism, groups that traditionally believed they were the ONLY ones liked by God are now embracing others as their brothers and sisters (e.g., Lutheran-Missouri Synod, is actually thinking about allowing non-Lutherans to take communion with them), and more and more charlatans (like Paul and Jan Crouch, Harold Camping, Hal Lindsey, Jimmy Swaggart, et al.) are being exposed. On top of that famous preachers like Carlton Pearson and Mike Williams have become universalists.”

My issue is this: This “paradigm shift” as you call it IS happening. And while I see it and am pretty excited to see it (because I tend to believe that way), the TRADITIONAL CHURCHES “see” it too…AS ANTI-CHRIST. AS their predicted ONE-WORLD RELIGION. AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. THIS SCARES THE BEJEEBUS OUT OF ME! :slight_smile: I love the Lord. I certainly don’t want to be on the wrong side of any issue with Him. But I can kinda see it both ways. Thoughts?

#39

shaking dust

#40

Hey Sass,
I know what you mean about that! I think that there is one thing that you can anchor yourself to and you can’t go wrong and that is Jesus. If people start telling you things that lead away from Jesus, RED FLAG! I just read a Brian McClaren book and it really frustrated me. He doesn’t believe in original sin, the fall of man, redemption from sin in Jesus, etc. etc. He doesn’t think that people need to become Christians, or disciples of Jesus, or whatever you want to call someone who follows Jesus, and I thought, “This is definitely NOT it” His message draws me away from Jesus and I will never listen to anyone who tries to draw me away from my Lord. UR points to Jesus. All things are reconciled in Christ. Not Buddah, or Krishna, or Joseph Smith. God will get what God wants and God wants us, for some reason. There are many changes afoot, but just keep your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of your faith!

Chris