The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"Eternal Sin" and Universalism - Yikes!

Many modern Bibles translate “αιωνιος” as “eternal”, but not all. I think the English word “lasting” is the best translation of the word.

Here is the way Young’s Literal Translation (1862) renders Mark 3:29

…but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment. (Mark 3:29 YLT)

Rotherham’s Translation (1872)

…but, whosoever shall revile against the holy spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin.

Concordant Version (Some parts translated in 1914, but revised and updated in 1976:

… yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable for the eonian penalty for the sin–

The context is even more specific than Paidion mentioned, because both in GosMatt and GosMark what the Pharisees are calling demonic power is the salvation of a sinner from demonic power!

What Jesus calls them down on is the hypocrisy of a self-contradicting double-standard: when their own disciples exorcise demons, this is proof the disciples are sent from God (because Satan wouldn’t undermine his own efforts – unlike these Pharisees who don’t even have the common sense of Satan!) And apparently the Pharisees still counted it as working with God even if their disciples have to exorcise a man twice (as GosMatt indicates happened here); the problem is with the man, not with the Pharisees as devout agents of God (which is basically what Jesus also says at the end of the scene in GosMatt: it isn’t His fault if He heals a guy and the guy doesn’t invite God to live in his heart so demons come back and infest him again.)

But when Jesus heals a man from demons, even if He has to do it twice, the Pharisees are willing to contradict their own principles, and common sense (which Jesus sarcastically lampoons), and say that it’s the work of the devil.

That isn’t just being mistakenly wrong about what’s happening; that’s intentionally cheating in abuse of the truth in order to hate without a cause (as Jesus describes His Pharisee opponents in GosJohn).

And it isn’t even “only” intentionally cheating in abuse of the truth in order to hate without a cause; it’s doing so in opposition to God’s salvation of sinners from sin. Basically the Pharisees were saying that at some point the demonized man had passed the point of no return and was sinning an unforgivable sin, so Jesus saving the man from sin after all couldn’t be from God.

That sets up an ironic context to test Jesus’ hearers (and readers) on what He’s saying: the only unforgivable sin is to insist that there is a sin that really will not be forgiven by God – or rather, to do so in a cheating way that self-contradicts what the denier would otherwise insist is true when it looks like it’s in his favor. But that means setting one’s heart against respect for the truth, and obviously so long as a person insists on doing that he cannot truly repent of his own sins, so God cannot complete forgiveness with him and must punish him.

But then again, for hearers or readers to insist this means the Pharisees had sinned a sin that God never would forgive, puts them in danger of the same sin that the Pharisees themselves were sinning! Sure, the Pharisees weren’t merely wrong, but were false teachers of the worst kind (in intentional and hateful opposition to the salvation of sinners from sin), so their last state (as Peter puts it later in an epistle) will be worse than their first. But that’s exactly (with exactly the same words in Greek) how Jesus describes the man he has saved whose example set off this incident!

So the Pharisees (and people like them) are putting themselves in the place of the man they’re condemning Jesus for saving; but Jesus saved that man anyway. Consequently He has just as much intention and capability of saving them, too.

Which may be why Mark, although he doesn’t report much of the background context involving the man who was healed of demon possession (a situation which Matthew reports Jesus describing as being the fault of the man), does put Jesus’ declaration even more strongly than Matthew does in Greek, that all sins whatever shall be forgiven men.

It is of course necessary to interpret Mark 3:29 by verse 28, or vice versa; but to interpret 28 by 29 is to claim (in effect) that where grace exceed,s sin super-exceeds, for not as the grace is the sin. Which is exactly opposite what St. Paul taught as the good news.

(Luke’s report of the scene at GosLuke 11 includes Jesus’ explanation about the man being at fault, not Jesus, for having to be exorcised twice, but saves his report of a mention of the sin that shall not be pardoned in a different situation later in Jesus’ ministry, early in the next chapter, with no mention of it being a sin into the eon or an eonian sin–but with reference to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.)

The whole context of the incident, harmonized across all three accounts, consequently weighs against treating “eonian sin” as meaning a never-ending sin that God has no intention and/or ultimate capability to forgive. Apparently it means “eonian” like the “times of the eonian secret” at the end of Paul’s epistle to the Romans, not like “the eonian God” in that same verse from Romans. As Paidion says, once someone puts themselves in that situation it can take a long time for God to lead them out of it, because of the situation, but it isn’t hopeless – no moreso than it was hopeless for the guy who not only had to be exorcised from the previous demon but seven more demons even worse than the first one!

To this George MacDonald’s observation about the topic is also pertinent: EVERY sin, being a rebellion against God, is a sin against the Holy Spirit, which is why in any case there has to be some further explanation of what that means; so by the same token, any sin, no matter how small, that a person flat refuses to come out of, must stay unforgiven so long as the person refuses to repent and do better. Moreover, by the same token, God does not condemn anyone for the sins they have done – the scriptures say He passes by thousands and even tens of thousands of sins – but only condemns a person for whatever sins or sin they insist on continuing to do.

That condemnation doesn’t mean God stops trying to lead the person out of that sin, much less that God never intended to do so in the first place, much less that God is ultimately incompetent at saving the person from that sin.

Following up Paidion’s followup, Dr. Ramelli in her recent books amasses evidence (summarized from several other articles and books of hers) that the early orthodox Fathers, even when they weren’t necessarily univesalists (but especially when they were of course) regarded the adjective “eonian” to apply to the age to come, not as having an intrinsic meaning of never-ending continuation in itself. And since some (particularly among the universalists) accounted that as the millennial age (although that interpretation changed once Constantine came into power since even universalists like Eusebius couldn’t figure out how to square a coming millennial reign of Christ with the surely permanent rise of Christian Imperial power :wink: ), with ages and ages of ages to follow after that, then the lack of forgiveness for the next age by itself, though serious and not to be trifled, was hardly a reason to deny that such people would ever be forgiven.

(Then again, Origen, following some precedents before him, and followed by those he inspired afterward, did acknowledge that some sinners would continue to hold out, due to their free will, for ages of ages. His position seemed to be though that those classed with the eonian sin would not be forgiven in the next age to come but would start to be forgiven in the age after that once the general resurrection commenced. From what I’ve read so far, I don’t know how he squared that with Christ’s harrowing of hades, which naturally takes place before the general resurrection.)

Thank you, Jason. You’ve given a thorough analysis of the matter. Just one little point:

HATE WITHOUT A CAUSE? How is it possible to hate without a cause? (unless one exercises random hate toward people)

The word which virtually all translations render as “without a cause” in John 15:25 is “δωρεαν”. This word is translated as “freely” nearly everywhere else in the New Testament. Why not in John 15:25? The following verses are from the NKJV:

Mt 10:8 "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely (δωρεαν) you have received, freely (δωρεαν) give.

Ro 3:24 …being justified freely (δωρεαν) by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus…

2Co 11:7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge (δωρεαν)?

2Th 3:8 Nor did we eat anyone’s bread free of charge (δωρεαν), but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you…

Re 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely (δωρεαν) to him who thirsts.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely (δωρεαν).

There is just one verse beside John 15:25 in which the NKJV renders “δωρεαν” other than “freely” or “free of charge”:

Ga 2:21 “I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain δωρεαν).”

I suggest: John 15:25 should be translated as follows:

But the word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me freely’.

The quote in John 15:25 seems to come from Psalm 34:19, and the Septuagint in that verse also uses the word “δωρεαν”.

Thanks, Jason, for the thoughtful words. I must admit that it always takes me a time or two to begin to understand your meaning – my poor, little brain :laughing: --but I always appreciate the meaning once I discern it.:slight_smile:

I hope with deepest hope that the universalist translation of “eonian” as “age-lasting,” rather than the common translation of “eternal,” is true. Why do most mainstream biblical scholars insist on keeping the translation of “eternal?” What is their justification for it? And why do they insist that the universalist translation is erroneous? Whenever I read up on the matter over Google, I find such a jumble of information that I end up more confused than I initially felt!

I really do appreciate the kind and thoughtful answers.

God bless,

Kate

I think it goes back to Augustine in the fourth century who insisted that “αιωνιος” means “eternal”. For a while Augustine was with a philosophy or religion known as “Manichæism” who taught that there was an eternal struggle between good and evil. Augustine was heavily influenced by that religion and may have transferred the concept of evil existing eternally to hell existing eternally with no end to the rebels’ struggle against God.

Augustine’s teaching also had a heavy influence upon the Church, and influence which has continued up to the present day.

Hmmm… Interesting, Paidion. Do we similarly have texts of Ancient Greek Church Fathers insisting that “αιωνιος” means “age-lasting” instead? And do you know if the Eastern Orthodox Church, with its emphasis on the Greek Church Fathers, still maintains the translation of “αιωνιος” as “age-lasting” rather than “eternal?”

I don’t think that any “insisted” that the word “αιωνιος” means “age-lasting”; as Augustine was the first to place a limit on what “αιωνιος” meant. Prior to Augustine there were many fathers who used the term “αιωνιος” to mean non-eternal; some of these fathers who used “αιωνιος” to mean other than eternal are: Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Homogenes, Origen, Eusebius and Gregory of Nyssa.

Augustine and Jerome tried to continually outsmart each other - as though they were in a competition. They both believed that they could make their arguments appeal as ‘right’, regardless of how much truth was in their argument. Jerome for many years had tried to argue that Peter and Paul had lied in their epistles, and that the bible had many errors (sounds familiar). Augustine tried to preach the opposite in this debate. They were more concerned with appearing right than being right, IMO.

Worse than their own mutual competition; they were both competing to make themselves look smarter than Origen. This was the trophy that most of the vain saints aspired. There was no one greater than Origen, so if they could contradict Origen, or make Origen look foolish, then they of course climbed to the top of the intellectual ladder. This was basically Augustine’s motive, but in order to contradict Origen, he also had to contradict many of the fathers who had clearly used the term “αιωνιος” to mean a non-eternal construct.

Peace
S.

Paidion,

Yes, I’m a big fan of {dôrean} – I even use that as a marriage name for a saintly minor hero in my second novel! (“She had chosen that name [for him], for he gave himself freely, costing her nothing, costing him everything.” He’s thus also the name for an entire section of chapters, “Given Freely”, where his wife goes to the farthest extreme to live up to his example.)

I understand the point of the two deviant translations, though. The term is being used at GosJohn to mean “without restraint”, and Jesus means they have hated Him without being restrained by fairness, without good reason. “Without a cause” is colloquial English phraseology meaning, in such contexts, the same thing: without good reason. The secondary meaning of “without good reason” fits what Paul wrote in Galatians 2:21, too.

Kate,

The adjective is routinely and most often used for something we don’t expect to ever end, namely eonian life from God; and also is occasionally applied to other things we don’t believe will ever end, up to and including God Himself. There’s a sort of feeling (possibly dating back to the original centuries of orthodoxy debate) that if eonian can mean less than never-ending, then those applications of the term will carry suspicion over to important terms and ideas we affirm are never-ending in quality.

This is demonstrated in the classic complaint (made most famous first by Augustine, and still used today), that if eonian means less than never-ending when applied to eonian punishment at the end of the judgment of the sheep and the goats in Mat 25, then that would mean the eonian life must mean less than never-ending, too, in the same verse.

And that’s a threat. A really important threat. For people who cannot imagine that Jesus and/or Matthew (in translation) would use the same term in close comparison and contrast to mean to superficially similar but ultimately different things (two different notions of “lasting”), and who don’t know that such examples do show up (if rarely) in scripture, and who don’t see any reason from prior context to infer that two different notions of “lasting” are being used there – then there can be only one logical conclusion: either the punishment is just as never-ending as the life, or the life is just as temporary after all as the punishment.

**Jason:
**

Thank you for the feedback. I initially had asked a follow up question about the juxtaposing uses of “eonian” in Matthew 25, but I edited my original post, as I found some older posts on site from Talbott that helped clear things up.:slight_smile:

Blessings,

Kate

Hi Kate

I like to go by what Jesus said about “eternal life”. And he spelled it out for us, in John 17:1-3 (my emphasis): “After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.’”

That seems pretty clear to me. ‘Eonian life’ (Greek = aionios zoe) is the life that we have from knowing God. It is not ‘everlasting life’ in the sense of life after death. That is resurrection - something else altogether.

Hence I like to translate the words ‘aionios zoe’ as ‘the life of God’, not ‘eternal life’. Much of the dodgy theology of orthodox Christianity has been built on this shifting sand.

Blessings

Johnny

Johnny, if aionion life is simply “the life of God”, why do the gospel writers speak of entering life rather than receiving life?
If this life is the life of God, one would think it is something to be received rather than something to enter.

All quotes are from the English Standard Version:

Mt 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Mt 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Mr 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Mr 9:45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

I tend to agree with JP’s quoting of Jesus as the clearest biblical definition. To enter the life of God is to grasp and move into that which is a present reality; I’m not sure “receiving” is really that much different.

I agree with you Paidion. It seems that the terms are confused - the promise of eternal life with the receiving of eternal life. The promise occurs when we believe, and it is in the here and now. The life itself is yet to be received. These two events are sometimes spoken of with the same terminology, yet they are very different.

Ephesians 1:13-14 - “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

Galatians 6:8 - “Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.”

Peace
S.

Eternal Sin? :exclamation: :sunglasses:

What about these? :sunglasses:

John 12:32 (NIV)
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Psalm 66:3 (NASB)
Say to God, "How awesome are Your works! Because of the greatness of Your power Your enemies will give feigned obedience to You.

Blessings

Johnny’s interpretation reminds me of one of my favorite verses: “I came so that they could have life—indeed, so that they could live life to the fullest” (John 10:10). Jesus reminds us that His gift of everlasting life begins at its moment of reception.

Accepting Christ’s gift and then living only in anticipation of life after death is like marrying someone solely in hopes of gaining their life insurance after they die. How nonsensical such logic sounds, but so many Christians, it seems, follow this mindset every day.

Well, that might count as affirming that Jesus meant a never-ending always-ongoing sin in GosMark, if God is willing to continue accepting feigned obedience. :unamused: That Psalm doesn’t indicate God won’t be content with deceiving obedience from His enemies, but other scriptures indicate He won’t put up with that but will insist on loyal praise and obedience – which He will eventually get.

Still, that Psalm is a curious exception to the general rule elsewhere. I’m going to look into the Hebrew term there and see if it makes more sense in a plausible different translation.

It is the enemies who give feigned obedience. When they obey from the heart, it obviously is no longer feigned obedience, but then, they no longer are enemies. I read this as “Even those who hate you at least pretend to obey you, because they recognize your might.” It’s not the optimal situation, but from enemies, I’m not sure one could expect anything better. Once they become friends, the obedience becomes true.

Well the point to the Psalm is that this is eventually going to happen, not that it’s already happening; and the situation is described using language similar to the total-evangelism testimonies elsewhere.

I’ve set up a new thread to discuss the Psalm over here: Psalm 66:3 -- enemies give feigned obedience?

The Biblical writers either used the Septuagint when they quoted OT passages, or they translated from a form of Hebrew which the Septuagint translators also used (Not the Masoretic text).

The Septuagint translation reads in English as follows:

The idea seems to be that God’s enemies are so terrifed of His works (what He may do to them), that they shall lie to God in an attempt to escape the results of His wrath.