The Evangelical Universalist Forum

EU: A most frustrating “argument” vs U.R.

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#41

The arugment simply doesn’t understand Evangelical Universalism or Universal Reconciliation. However, we’ve been using the term from Robin’s book for the very purpose or identifying that we do believe in wrath.

It’s difficult because there’s no real concensus I know from UR as to whether one can be ultra or non-ultra in their form of universalism. The argument is really directed at Ultra Universalists. So TV, if you believe people don’t go to hell then I understand your frustration. However, if you believe that people will go to hell, then you should understand that it’s only an argument against certain types of Universalism.

Sure I agree with all you stated TV, but the fact that people don’t understand our position (EU), is our fault and we should be more articulate to help them understand. For how else can they truly come to wrestle with such beliefs if we don’t present it in a clear and accurate way.

Aug

#42

But Alex, the argument you put to me once went, who would in their right mind not choose God? Unless universalism assumes we become all-knowing, we’ll never have any idea of the consequences of our actions. Adam and Eve where in a better state to choose God then Hitler after a million years in purgatory (Pilgrim’s already referred to the Nazis!) and they didn’t choose God. Romans 1 says God gives people over to what they want, so surely there are people who knowing what they know choose anti-God and God gives them over to that choice.

(By the way what do you mean by Adam and Eve being “naive”? (There is no biblical sense in which Adam and Eve lacked the appropriate knowledge to obey God and glorify him.) )

#43

Let me qualify that a little. Who would in their right mind not choose God after experiencing Hell (i.e. the full consequences of our actions)?

:laughing: no, I’m not claiming that. I’m saying that from our perspective, each individual needs a different amount of evidence/persuading to turn to God. Some, by God’s grace can do so now, others will need Hell to open their eyes. I’m not saying people need absolutely all knowledge before making a decision, but just whatever is necessary to make the right one (i.e. turn to God).

In some ways yes, in some ways no :sunglasses:

For a time, so that they can learn that their choice was stupid :neutral_face: Like we will probably have to do when our children become teenagers!

They hadn’t yet eaten for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so whilst they certainly made a choice, they didn’t know yet the pain and suffering it would bring.

#44

And not even at all ultra-Us. While some believe God’s wrath has been entirely pretermitted in the death of Jesus (and/or the death of Jerusalem in 70, so to speak), others believe God still can and does do wrath here in this life (just not post-mortem).

#45

Totally agreed JP, which is really the point of my post.

#46

I was commenting to Bob Wilson the other day that a great difficulty is Universalists not having any denomination nor concensus on doctrine. We’re all over the map with our own different ideas of what scripture says. Yes we have a commonality of God’s love and his sovereignty but when it comes to atonement, spitual gifts, rapture and all kinds of other topics, we differ.

This makes it hard to all of us. For Ranran, it seemd penal sub. was his greatest focus - For Bob Wilson it’s non-penal sub; for JP it’s trinty; for Auggybendoggy it’s star wars (kidding). Some are determinists, some libertarians.

But regarding the OP, the Christian who makes the argument simply does not understand the position of Universalism.

Aug

#47

Hi auggy – and good to see you more active again!

My frustration is really at the thought that some would see my vision of UR (which is about the most stunning act of God I can imagine in some ways) as actually contributing to the very thing which compelled (if that’s the right word…) Christ to the Cross. That really kills me. That somehow, because I see through the din of sin into that future where God is triumphant and saves all, I’m actually enabling sin. That hurts. Hurts because it’s so incorrect!

And of course you are correct auggy to suggest that from the perspective of one who has not believed in hell (me) it all gets confusing. So it’s very ironic I think that part of my embrace of UR included an embrace of the idea of “hell”! Not ECT hell though; but a “place” (whether a physical place or an emotional place? or both…) where ones sin and rebellion come into sharp focus and one can run no further and thus faces, for the first time, the nature of his true condition. That purifying, not punishing Fire.

As to we UR believers being all over the map with our various theologies and doctrines, JP has regularly reminded me of the vast varieties and ways of holding to UR. GM’s Introductory chapter in ALL SHALL BE WELL makes that point very dramatically for me. It’s a really fabulous chapter I think. Now my sense is that this huge variety of doctrine and varied emphasis is something you find a bit (for lack of a better word) annoying or irritating or frustrating. Correct me if I’m wrong about that…) and I certainly can see why.

However, I also can see it from the positive side; UR being the BIG TENT gospel under which ALL come to worship God. The God who loves extravagantly and whose Grace is the ultimate solvent and cleanser. And all mediated through the person of Jesus – though many will make that discovery later rather than sooner. So for example UR forces me to be far kinder with those who hold to a believe like Penal Sub which in the past I have found utterly abhorrent. UR describes finalities and doesn’t get so bogged down in mechanisms and means. And it forces us to implicitly admit that our views on the doctrines we now hold dear will most likely be altered and modified as we mature in the very presence of God.

Further, I think that BIG TENT of UR is SO big that it can easily accommodate people like our own JeffA who, not being sure there even IS a God, can still dream and hope of UR as the great final answer to all our questions about life and meaning and duty and so on.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody!!!

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#48

TV, thanks for that. I agree. If there is one thing that UR has done, it’s given me a more external perspective of others. I often am trying to see things the way they do and then try to understand how it is they come to their conclusion. But if there is one thing that is true, most people, so it seems, who embrace EU, tend to not care about the rapture question. So the Big Tent metaphor is something I relate to. True, it’s not always the case but I think generally speaking it is.

The other note is that every church has it’s differences. It’s a matter of whether you want to stay and attend that denomination.

Still, I think you should try to remember that the argument you raise is based on a misunderstanding of UR. I think what’s frustrating for me is that it simply doesn’t matter if it’s misunderstood or not, they’ll still continue to argue along the same lines…and perhaps that is where your frustration lies?

#49

Tv, what I’m really trying to say - though not well - is that I find it totally reasonable for people to respond like - Oh, so I can live a life of sin and still go to heaven, then I’ll rob a bank now and reap the rewards of God. That is an objection that is completely normal. Though we’re being completely misunderstood, it is totally normal for one to make that objection. I still do find it to be our responsibility to explain the misunderstanding; that may be a tall order.

#50

I recall talking about UR with my Uncle and Aunt and they responded similarly to Luke when he states:

For me this is like a Christian about to step on a tripwire just before the bomb goes off.

One thing I’ve been learning is that people seem to not really graps the power of allegory or metaphor. I read not long ago that C.S. Lewis was being won over to theism by J.R.R Tolkien due to Tolkiens argument for the power of allegory. I don’t know exactly what that means but regardless, it meant something to me.

When people respond with - Oh, I can go to hell for a few years and get out…then I’ll live a life of sin - I challeng them; so far there have been NO TAKERS. Here’s the challenge:

Go to a swimming pool, drench yourself with BBQ lighter fluid and then light a match. Give it a go for 5 seconds and then jump in the pool. Ok, lets really test it, give it a go for 10 minutes. OK OK, make it an hour. Try grabbing the hot end of a red hot poker and hold on for 1 minute.

Jesus gave us illustrations to communicate the seriousness of hell and God’s wrath. But it seems Christians aren’t impressed with it UNLESS it’s forever. So if God doesn’t make it eternal then it just aint good enough.

If a house was burning and your Christian brother/sister was trapped inside, would you relax? If being punished in hell for 10,000 years is so easy then why are people afraid if their loved ones are burning in a house for 10 minutes?

I think they outta take Jesus seriously and realize, no matter how long, the point is…IT"S BAD!

#51

But have you noticed that it’s the Christians who tend to talk like that not the sinners :smiley: . It’s as if the only thing holding them back from all that stuff is their decision to be Christians. Scripture, however, seems to indicate that the sanctification process writes God’s laws on the heart of the believer which should result in them genuinely not wanting to do any of those things mentioned. Yet to an outsider like me it seems that their faith is just another kind of ‘law’ that curbs their natural tendencies rather than purging them away by turning the person around to the place where there is no desire to do those things.

For the record - I don’t want to do any of those things anyway. What UR does for me is hold out the hope that, even if I find it impossible to believe that any of it is true, even to death, if I’m wrong, there is still hope.

#52

Sadly, I’ve come across that before too :frowning:

#53

Well put Jeff :sunglasses:

#54

I’ve been thinking about that–about why it is that people say that–I think it’s part of the power of the lie that makes a mockery of God’s justice. The lie says God’s a tyrant that’s going to inflict unimaginable torment on his enemies forever. When you tell people that it’s not true–that God will inflict just punishment on those who deserve it, they say, “Oh, that’s not so bad.” And it’s because the lie is so horrendous that in comparison the truth seems trivial. But only in comparison. Like you say–no one will take you up on your challenge.

The truth is that no one will evade the just consequences of unrighteousness. And we’ll not be reprieved until we repent from our hearts and choose life. Anyone who really has the mindset of wanting to continue sinning only shows that they deserve hell–that they are not yet reconciled to God, or that their submission to God is only out of fear of what he will do to them–not out of love for God and the things He loves.

(Isa 29:13) The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.

But I doubt the people who make the objection really want to continue sinning–hopefully it’s a hypothetical knee-jerk response!

Sonia

#55

Alex,

But how this any different to Adam and Eve’s situation, they knew what was necessary to the make the right decision, but didn’t?

I wrote: “Adam and Eve where in a better state to choose God then Hitler after a million years in purgatory and they didn’t choose God.” and you said:

In what ways? :sunglasses:

In regard to God giving people over to what they choose, you said they it would only be for a time. How do get that from Romans 1?

#56

They knew God was good, they didn’t know anything evil. The knew living in proper relationship with God was good, but nothing of what it was to live without a proper relationship with God and the pain and suffering that it brings. They knew enough to make a decision but not enough to make the right decision, which would have been to not disobey God.

Pre-fall Adam and Eve knew nothing of sin, pain & suffering, however, they knew lots about what it was like to be close to God. Pre-Hell Hitler knew a bit about sin, pain & suffering and a very little bit about God. After a million years in Hell Hitler will know everything about sin, pain & suffering and hopefully a lot about God too. Hopefully, when God sits down with him and asks him to be reconciled, Hitler will agree that God’s way if definitely better than his own way and ask for forgiveness (if not, he obviously needs to spend some more time in Hell!).

I’m glad you asked, I’ll do it in my next post. For the extra challenge I’ll try to stay within only the first chapter :mrgreen:

#57

Sweet, I didn’t have to go far to find something which looks like UR :slight_smile: Note, not just any obedience, but the obedience from faith.

Time for bed now but I’d like to continue through the rest of Romans 1 tomorrow :sunglasses:

#58

If only I had the aritculate tongue of Jeffa. Well said and yes, this is yet another facet of such responses. People love sin and if they could have it both ways, they would. Talbott makes this clear (and I think he’s right), anyone who does so is only blind and in bondage (deceived). Yet, we hear it all the time from Christians.

While I find it to be a normal objection…divorce is normal, violence is normal, racisim/favoritism is normal…
so though it’s normal, it’s truly revealing and invalid.

#59

Yes: this is at the heart of my frustration I think… :cry: :cry: :cry:

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#60

TV,
I totally relate. I once had a friend who approached his pastor because in the sermon the pastor was using noah and the family being in the ark 7 days before the flood to be a picture of the church being rescued (pre-trib raptured) out of the world. My friend showed him how the bible stated that Noah and the family were in the ark ON THE DAY the flood gates opened. The pastor admitted he had misunderstood the text of Genesis and then later continued to still employ this argument. My friend was apalled but still is under that pastors leadership.

While it’s true, it’s not good to just pack up and move along with every disagreement, I could not take it. I would have to leave.

When people realize what SLJ and Jeffa are saying, I tend to think it won’t matter…they’re still bent against the idea that the wicked will inherit the kingdom of God - even though they get that we don’t endorse that.

Aug